Craigslist find

[55ffpw]

Hi,

I recently was searching for a gun safe and came across this on Craigslist. I ended up picking up for $50. There's almost no markings on the safe except for a small sticker on the bottom left front that is pretty scratched up with what appears to be Chinese script and some numbers. There is a safe company sticker on the the front and I gave them a call and they quoted $400 to come out and open it. He said it's a "Miwa" safe and thinks it's a Group 2, three number combination lock with possibly a friction fence? For a fire safe this size $450 is probably a good deal, but I would be infinitely proud of myself if I could get it open on my own.


I see that there is a key slot along with the combination. Is it possible that this safe is locked with the combination and a key, or is the key there just to override the combination? I don't know how that works.


I did an AWL scan of the combination lock and this is what I came up with. I used the wire method to amplify the divisions so I think it's pretty accurate, (one interval on the wheel = 18mm on the rulers) but my novice brain is getting confused by the multiple peaks and valleys. Could someone take a look and give some feedback? Should I run a high/low test on 34, 45, 54? Those all kind of look a little like gates?


Thanks,
Stan

[cledry]

Looks like a Diplomat safe to me.

[cledry]

If it is they are very easy to manipulate. Make a key first though.

[55ffpw]

What is the key used for? Is it absolutely needed? There is an alphanumeric code on the front of the keylock. Is there some way of getting a key using that code?

Thanks,
Stan

[Squelchtone]

What is the key used for? Is it absolutely needed? There is an alphanumeric code on the front of the keylock. Is there some way of getting a key using that code?

Thanks,
Stan

Once you alight the gates on the combination wheels, turning the key to the right moves the fence into the gates which alignt at 9 oclock if you are outside looking at the front of the safe, and also allows for the bolt work to be retracted so the door can be pulled open.

[55ffpw]

Ah, so what you're saying is that just manipulation won't open the safe. You have to have the key to open the safe.

[cledry]

Ah, so what you're saying is that just manipulation won't open the safe. You have to have the key to open the safe.

Yes. Some of these safes don't even use a handle.

[Squelchtone]

Ah, so what you're saying is that just manipulation won't open the safe. You have to have the key to open the safe.

you need both.. in order to tell how you are doing you have to push the fence into the wheels, turning the key pushes the fence into the wheels. As you turn the combination dial, you turn the key and see if it turns a little more, which means it's going deeper into a true wheel gate, sometimes a false gate meant to confuse a safe cracker.

Here is another threat with some photos of another Diplomat safe, although the inside you're about to see is not exactly like what yours is like.. about 75% the same..

https://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=65275#p485734

[55ffpw]

I called a locksmith and gave him the code that is stamped on the lock. He made me three keys saying that he wasn't sure which blank the manufacturer might have used hence three different blanks.

I tried them in the lock and of course it didn't open because I don't have the combination, however I scratched a reference mark on the cylinder and housing and when using any of the keys the rotation does not differ from inserting a random key that fits in the lock. Would I be correct to assume that if the key was correct I should get a few more degrees of cylinder rotation even though the combination has not been entered? It feels like the lock is still locked.

Also, while turning the key to the right or left there is no difference in how the dial rotation feels.

If I posted the cylinder code here and a picture of the key would someone be able to tell me if it is the correct cut?

[Raymond]

I have no experience exactly with Diplomat safes. But it would seem to me that the handle would move the bolt rack and the key lock double locks it. I suggest that if the key lock is actually locked, that it could be picked once the combo is determined. The key lock might actually be unlocked right now.

Supporting this hypothesis is the fact that he was actually able to plot a convincing graph. If the key was necessary to move the bolt rack, a direct tailpiece lock, then there would be no "drop point" to measure on the graph.

Continue manipulation to see if the handle will turn some then pick the lock to open it the rest of the way.

[55ffpw]

I have no experience exactly with Diplomat safes. But it would seem to me that the handle would move the bolt rack and the key lock double locks it. I suggest that if the key lock is actually locked, that it could be picked once the combo is determined. The key lock might actually be unlocked right now.

Supporting this hypothesis is the fact that he was actually able to plot a convincing graph. If the key was necessary to move the bolt rack, a direct tailpiece lock, then there would be no "drop point" to measure on the graph.

Continue manipulation to see if the handle will turn some then pick the lock to open it the rest of the way.

That's really interesting...

The locksmith suggested that the key lock may be a "day" lock, allowing the safe door to be opened via "key only" throughout the day if the combination lock was undisturbed after first opening as in the Diplomat model. If this were the case, using my imagination I would picture that the key lock sits mechanically linked between the dial and the handle.

Which leads me to this: The locksmith asked me to spin the dial while pulling the handle up in the open direction. There is a very noticeable binding between 48 and 51 on the dial. When I release the handle the binding is gone. When sharply moving the handle up and down there is no discernable movement on the key lock. This suggests that the key lock may not be mechanically linked between the handle and the dial and may in fact be an unlocked double lock as you suggest?

To your point, if I understand correctly, you are saying that if there is no fence how would I be able to do an AWL graph that appears to be picking up data? (There does appear to be nose contact points at 95 and 1) If the key were to be a "double lock" currently in the unlocked position it would be effectively out of the equation. This could be supported by the binding around 50 when manipulating the lock handle.

If I am able to get a correct key made I should be able to confirm the function of the key lock. If I can turn a full rotation of the key it would confirm that it is a "double" lock, if it turns slightly it would be a day lock. Unfortunately I am as skilled a lockpicker as I am a safecracker.

Could the binding at 49-51 when pulling the handle indicate anything? If you look at my AWL there doesn't appear to be much going on in that area.

Fair warning these are the musings of a complete novice.

Looking at my AWL, I would appreciate any very explicit manipulations to try next. I have watched a lot of videos, read a lot of posts but my "not as young as it used to be" brain is having some trouble processing all the information. Thanks all!

[55ffpw]

Some more information about this safe.

While I was not able to get a key made I did pick up a cheap lock picking set from Amazon. (Those clear plastic practice locks are complete junk by the way) After about an hour of trying to imitate the Lock Picking Lawyer I was actually able to unlock the key lock on the safe. I was able to rotate the cylinder 360 degrees very smoothly with no binding, interference or resistance. I picked the lock again and rotated it back to the original position, again with no interference.

Would this indicate that this is not a day lock since it appears that the lock is not engaging any further mechanism and freely rotating 360 degrees? If it was a day lock and the correct combination was not set I assume that the lock would only partially rotate if the gates were not in the correct position?

If it is a secondary lock any tips on which direction would be unlock? All the way left or right? Not sure if there is a standard. My intuition says that left (counter clockwise) should be unlock but maybe it's just because that is how you would unlock a deadbolt on the front door of a house from the outside.

Any feedback is appreciated.

[damonwill]

WOW!! I wish I found that for that price!!

[Raymond]

The key lock may be using a 'lazy cam' and only blocking the bolt bar when locked. Exactly the function of the day lock concept. On a direct tailpiece lock, turning the key lock all the way in one direction, if this is the unlocked direction, should result in the dial becoming difficult to turn when you apply handle pressure. The handle will be pushing the fence on the bolt bar into the wheel pack directly. If the lock is a standard modern safe lock the handle will have no effect on turning the dial and you must continue to manipulate.

If it is a direct tailpiece lock, move your manipulation amplifier rod over to the handle. Move the dial and register the difference in how far the handle moves. Then move the dial another increment.