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I am in the process of cleaning a Major door floor safe. All is going fine, but the hand change wheels do not match up to the combination that unlocks the door. The owner does not want the combo changed, so I will try to explain without giving too much away. Working combo is XX-19-YY. The middle wheel as found is clearly set for 86:
Checking the other two wheels, it is clear that it each number is off by 33 each (±1). Makes sense, sort of. The drive wheel has 3 positions in which the spline key can be placed. However, If I rotate the drive wheel position to the next notch, the combination set on the wheels works fine for the 3 numbered wheels, but the drive wheel notch is 120° out of position to let the fence drop at 0. It does drop, but at around 67. All consistent, I guess.
Drive wheel as found (well, cleaner than found). The heavy scratch across from the notch is the "correct" location for the spline key for the fence to drop at 0
I know I can finish cleaning it up and it will work fine. When they eventually do want the combo changed, I need to remember to offset the wheels +33/-33/+33 and all will be well.
But this is a bit of a mystery to me and I would bet some of you have seen this a few times. Any info will be appreciated.
Not all wheels are the same. In mesh change locks there are two rings, which alternate in the wheel pack to correct the "error" introduced by pin and fly being on opposing locations. So a switch of W2 and W3 introduces an error in the combination. So what happens when you switch them? With only +/-33 it would not be correct in a normal lock, but maybe they did something different.
It actually was unusual for those wheel numbers TO match up.... The first thing I always did on a hand change was write down the customers combination, then write down the wheel number shown, and come up with the "correction" factor for each wheel. I always wrote that on the inside of the back plate. Never dove into the root cause but it may be miss matched wheels or inner/outer wheels. You may be able to correct it by swapping the parts around.
Good answers by Martin and Sammy. If memory servers me right, on a few locks I've worked on, the 2nd wheel's numbers are stamped around it in the opposite direction (numbers are clockwise from 0 up to 100 or counter clockwise around the wheel 100 down to 0than wheel 1 and 3. Put your wheels next to each other on the desk/bench and see if they are identical or if one has numbers going backwards. That's a good way of figuring out if the wheel sandwich is not stacked in the correct order.
As I can see from this video, the gate position on wheel 2 is also 180 degrees out of synch with the gate positions wheel 1 and 3, but the numbers on this safe locks wheels all ascend from 0 to 100 counter-clockwise.
Here is a photo of one of my locks showing the 2nd wheel having the gate in a different position (180 degrees out of sync) than wheels 1 and 2.
From what I see the centre of the wheels is always the same, but the last one is missing its pin. The outside is available in two flavours. The numbering direction is the same, but the numbers are 180° turned around with 0 or 50 at the gate. This is because the pin is 180° turned around from the fly. Older locks have both parts numbered starting with 1. The two parts with one go together and go first on the wheel pack. I have also seen wheels where only the outer parts was numbered. I think the numbered both parts when they were not sure a ring would fit any inner part.
In this case they did something unusual. The wheel you show has something like 65 or perhaps 66.6666 on the gate. So they did something unusual to compensate for the 3-slot splining. But still if the rings are in the correct order and you set them all to 0, then the gates should be aligned or nearly so. And there will then be an offset from the splining and where the index plate is mounted.
I did notice that my 2nd wheel is notched differently than the 1st and 2nd. The first wheel (closest to the dial) is notched between 12 & 18 and the numbers increase clockwise around the wheel. The 2nd wheel (in my 1st post) is notched between 62 & 68 and the numbers also increase clockwise. The 3rd wheel is similar to the 1st wheel with the notch between 12 & 18 and numbers increasing clockwise. I can understand why the 2nd/middle wheel might be numbered anti-clockwise since the dial is turned opposite the other two wheels, but that is not the case here.
I may try swapping the wheel order as a test, but will likely end up keeping the current order and follow Sammy's advice and write the adjustments on the inside of the bottom plate.
I suppose it is possible that someone swapped the order. I did find one of the brass shims under the fly instead of on top upon disassembly.
Remove spline key, driver, and dial... Run long screwdriver thru spindle hole from the back and feed wheel pack parts onto screw driver. Clean, examine, and reassemble each part one by one off of the screw driver. back onto the wheel post.. That way you can t mix up parts....
That is a great idea. I usually lay out all the pieces on a rag in order as they come off. The screwdriver trick might have been tricky on this one because a couple of wheels did not want to come off due to the build up of excess grease and dirt making them stick pretty good to each other and the hub.
On these wheels made with zinc/random white pot metal, I assume they need a very thin layer of lube underneath since the metal it is not as naturally self-lubricating as brass?
S&G's recommendation for their locks in to lube only the wheel post and not between wheels. But in this case the lock is lying down, which might change the situation. But floor safes get a lot of dirt and grease attracts this dirt and then it might lead to a malfunction. I think I would grease the wheel post and the separation washers and then wipe it of again, so that only little is left.
Thanks. That was my plan. As found was too much grease and dirt/dust paste on the wheels.
Also of note, I compared the wheel/spindle to a new spare Major, and the 0 position to keyway on the shaft are the same. Keyway is aligned to 0 on both.
BlueLock wrote:That is a great idea. I usually lay out all the pieces on a rag in order as they come off. The screwdriver trick might have been tricky on this one because a couple of wheels did not want to come off due to the build up of excess grease and dirt making them stick pretty good to each other and the hub.
On these wheels made with zinc/random white pot metal, I assume they need a very thin layer of lube underneath since the metal it is not as naturally self-lubricating as brass?
I always have a 12" screwdriver in my bag so it works well for me.
Lubricate the wheel post only as far as the lock is concerned. As little lubricant as you can get on there.
Thanks Martin & Sammy. I ended up lubricating the post with "a little" and the separation washers with mostly a whisper. (whatever was still on my fingers). Everything is moving very smoothly as it should.
Of course, the first time I dialed the combo, all went great until it was time to pull in the bolts and it stopped dead... The relocker is works great Pushing the relocker in with a nut driver then made life good again. Tested 3x before putting the back plate on, making sure to work it around a few times. Tested another 7 or 8 times with the back plate on, then really cleaned up the dial. The dingy grey numbers and ticks on the wheel are white again. Looks great.
I have changed hundreds of hand change safes. It is normal to find that they might be off a number or two but not to this extent. There is no need to remove the dial, spline key etc. that is just making more work for yourself. Just put top wheel to the left with the retaining clip next to it, middle wheel to the right of that and bottom wheel to the right. Do this each time and you will never mix things up. If you forget just look at which one is next to the clip that goes on last.
Some locksmiths widen the gates to compensate for being a number or two off. I don't like this practice but it is commonly found.
Someone could mix up the centers between the various outer parts of the wheel and get it way out perhaps.
Thanks. I ended up putting everything back together exactly as-was because they did not want to change the combination. I never even bothered to pop out the centers, so no chance of change. I did put a note for myself (or the next guy in it) on the inside of the back plate in case they ever do want to change the combo. I know the combo was changed only once in the last 15 years, but I did not do it. Best guess is the change was done ~8 or 9 years ago.
The lock has been working well enough for the last ~45 years or so, but definitely needed cleaning when I did it. Pretty sure it is original to the building which was built in 1976. The tube definitely is original. Then again... Who knows.
You don't know if a previous locksmith mixed them up though. Just a thought, I could be way off here.
BlueLock wrote:Thanks. I ended up putting everything back together exactly as-was because they did not want to change the combination. I never even bothered to pop out the centers, so no chance of change. I did put a note for myself (or the next guy in it) on the inside of the back plate in case they ever do want to change the combo. I know the combo was changed only once in the last 15 years, but I did not do it. Best guess is the change was done ~8 or 9 years ago.
The lock has been working well enough for the last ~45 years or so, but definitely needed cleaning when I did it. Pretty sure it is original to the building which was built in 1976. The tube definitely is original. Then again... Who knows.
