Failed to open old SG lock

[femurat]

I was called to open an old vault door and failed. It was the first time I left a job after a day of work, without opening it. You can imagine I'm very sad about it.
Everything was going fine but I missed something.
At some time during the manipulation process I tried to move the knob and left it in the unlock direction, making the bolt work push against the lock bolt. This may be a newbie mistake that made some of my graphs flat. And many high-low tests were unhelpful. But I suspect there's something else that I missed.
Here are the 9 graphs I made. Any suggestion is appreciated.











I have another chance to go there soon for a couple hours before the door gets drilled. The first thing I'm going to do is to use odd numbers instead of evens. Usually it doesn't make a difference, but this time it could.

Any idea of the lock model, based on the dial? Is it normal that the plastic brand is optical white while the dial paint is a bit yellow? Or maybe it was replaced for some reason?

Thanks

[MartinHewitt]

Hi Femurat,

the dial is IMHO a normal, aged S&G dial. It is not unlikely, that there is a 6730 at its end.

What would I have done differently ...

I do not make Hi/Lo tests unless there is a gate signature, because only there it is known that THE WHEEL has clear steps next to it. In all other situations it can go anywhere. From your AWL graph I would have done as a second step a graph with W1 and W2 at L11 (middle of valley, same direction) and W3 around right (or/and left). Because: W3 is the least work and shows first most often. If there is still not gate signature I at least know a good region to park W3. Generally I like to go to single wheel scans early.

Unless the LCP is to mushy I would have started to graph it too for at least the interesting locations to get an independent set of information, which can be compared.

You could have tried also an AWR. It is quickly done and a slight shift in wheel positions can lead to a visible gate.

I do get points every 2.5 numbers. It is faster and I never had a fail because of that.

I do also quick scans to graph rough valleys and hills. I do this also in between graphs, e.g. W1@something, W3@somethingelse, graph W2 and then it is easy to look at low locations for different, better positions of W3.

[femurat]

Thank you for all the suggestions, much appreciated.

I do not make Hi/Lo tests unless there is a gate signature, because only there it is known that THE WHEEL has clear steps next to it. In all other situations it can go anywhere. From your AWL graph I would have done as a second step a graph with W1 and W2 at L11 (middle of valley, same direction) and W3 around right (or/and left).

You're right about the high-low test: I was overconfident and thought I got a gate even if it didn't look like one, in fact the second graph was useless.
After that, I did made a third one with #1 and #2 @ Left 10, #3 AR. I should have used 11 as you suggest, because this graph was also inconclusive.
And the only useful info I got from graph number four was that wheel #1 had a low area at 10.
Thanks to this info, that I could have gotten from the first graph, I finally got a nice gate signature at Right 42-43 either on wheel #2 or #3.
Here the high-low test was useful, because it marked it on wheel #3.
This is the only thing I'm sure about: wheel #3 is 42 or 43.

After that, I was tired and demotivated and did't get much more info.
Graph number seven showed some slight low points on wheel #1 or #2 at 6, 26, 32, 58, 89. I could investigate these numbers and the surrounding area a bit more.
I got nothing from graph eight other than a slightly lower area between 0 and 20 but I'm not sure it was relevant or accurate.
Also the last graph was not very useful. I've rewritten the numbers in google sheets and redraw the last graphs to see if I can deduce new interesting areas by comparing the latest graphs.

I'll keep in mind your suggestion of isolating the wheels early.

Cheers

[MartinHewitt]

I hope you will get that safe open the next time, because otherwise we won't see its lock.

[L4R3L2]

Having the bolt pinched should not negatively affect your graphing.

At this point, I would try 11L / 42.5R / AL next.

[Squelchtone]

femurat,

That does sound like a long frustrating day, but I have no doubt you can open that safe!

Would you have time to graph Left *and* Right contact points?

Squelchtone

[femurat]

Some new thought after a few days:

The 42.5 is good going Right, not Left, unless I check its center again.
It's strange that in graph 5 the combo L10 R42 R42 gave me a 12.4 but in graph 9, when I was at R10 L42 L42 it gave me a 12.75. The whole graph 9 is higher than graph 5.
I have to check it again. Check if the potential gate shows up in the other direction and maybe the surrounding numbers like Right 11, 10, 9 for wheel #1 and Left 42 and 43 for wheels #2 and #3.

Graph 6 L10 AR L42 was inconclusive, but the line I got was the lower ever, with a 12.4 being the most common reading around 10 and between 22 and 88. So maybe wheel #1 gate was close to 10 or wheel #3 close to 42 but not enough to get an open?

Next graph will be 11L 42.5R AL as L4R3L2 suggested. Hope to get a good reading on wheel #2.
Then a new scan on wheel #3 just to be sure I did test it carefully.

I'll check both contact points.

I ordered a cheap contact mic and amplifier to enhance my reading precision.

Cheers

[femurat]

Finally I went there and had a chance to play with this safe again. I went there with a completely different approach. The first time I underestimated the job.
This time I was better prepared in terms of:
LIGHT
There was a light in the room, but was far and not bright. I brought a portable light and this made a huge difference.
HEIGHT
I was sitting on a chair but the dial was higher than usual, so I had it too close to my face and had to work with my arms higher than usual. I brought a small ladder and a cushion to sit on, so I could be at the correct height to see the dial and comfortable with my arms.
HEAR
The small audio amplifier I bought worked very well for me to hear all the lock movements and contact points. Having something else, other than the touch to feel the contact points is very important with these old and big safe doors. The spindle is so long and the lock so far, that it's not easy as it is on my workbench. Hearing them really helped.
PRECISION
Knowing that this lock didn't forgive small mistakes, I was ready to be very precise and scrupulous. I took note of both contact points and was ready for a long job. Last time I thought it could have been a couple hours maximum. This time I was ready to work all day.



Thanks to the help of all of you, I had a plan. 11 42,5 AL.



But first of all, I verified the info I had. I studied carefully the only thing I was sure about: wheel #2 or #3 was 42,5. And there was a low area around 10 on wheel #1. So I decided to double check that area and see if there was a better place to park wheel #1. There wasn't, wheel #1 was covered by #2 or #3 at 42,5. Using 11 was a good plan.

So I double checked the gate center on wheels #2 and #3. It was 42,5 indeed.
I also made a few high-low test to see if, with the new conditions, I could get better results. I did!
Wheel #3 was still the better choice for that gate. Unexpected but good.



It was time to start getting new info, and I followed my usual strategy: test more wheels together. Worst case scenario I waste half an hour. Best case scenario I get another gate. Comparing this graph to the similar one I made last time, clearly shows how different it is to get good readings in good general conditions.
As you can see, I got a perfect gate signature at 96. I was doing high-low tests but stopped writing down the results.
Trying to convert the dialing direction, with great surprise, I found nothing between 98 and 93 going Right.

This lock was going the wrong direction. I decided to brute force wheel #2 going Left... so dialed R L R L and then oscillated the dial on contact area until it was OPEN!

After opening the lock, I did not open the door so couldn't see what lock was inside.
I also won't reveal the last number, just to be on the SAFE side.

Thank you again for the help and support on this difficult job!

Cheers

[MartinHewitt]

Great! It doesn't matter which direction. An open is an open.

So did it take all day?

[BlueLock]

Congrats on the open and thank you for this great thread! Confirms that better conditions and prep give better results.

What is the small audio amplifier you bought? Looks nice and small, but is clearly effective.

[MartinHewitt]

You can find the red thing on ebay as "guitar pickup". It has a double sided sticker attached. You can use this directly or stick there a magnet. There are also other brands. The amp should be somewhere near to the pickup.

[MartinHewitt]

And btw. if you are looking for inspiration you can look through Oldfast's postings on keypicking.com.

[Safecrackin Sammy]

Awesome!

The work site improvements are a real positive. Its amazing how much those little things can help.

Karma, positive thinking, determination that you brought for round two were a major factor.

The longer I do this, the more I realize there are good karma days, and bad karma/walk away and come back some other time days.

Glad you stuck in there and swung the door!

[femurat]

Thank you all for the compliments.

Martin, it took me just a little more than 2 hours.

BlueLock, I second what Martin said. A pickup for acoustic guitar and its mini amplifier. And a nice pair of headphones with the good old cable and jack.

Sammy, speaking of karma, I know what you mean. When I start at 0 and find a gate at 12, I feel blessed and everything falls in place. When I find it at 96, I'm still happy but it's not the same thing.

Cheers

[Peter Martin]

Congratulations. This is tremendous work. I'm very glad you had success in the end of your endeavor.
Pete
Sioux Falls, SD