Advice on a brand/model replacement mortise lock cylinder?

[dschwarz2]

I'm on the board of directors of a New York City co-op apartment building. 420 apartments in all, constructed in 1960. We are doing a renovation and part of the work will require replacing the mortise lock cylinders in all 420 apartment doors. (We are switching from brass trim to stainless steel trim, we're doing the cylinder swap for aesthetics, but we also think that after 60 years, some of those lock cylinders could do with replacing.)

At the time the building was built, there was no lobby security and our neighborhood was fairly dangerous. Everyone in the building added a supplemental jimmyproof lock above the mortise lock. Those are staying in place. We now have 24 hour lobby security and the neighborhood is extremely safe compared to how it was in the 1960s and 1970s.

So - we don't need the ultimate in high security for the mortise lock cylinder. But I want something that is a quality mechanism, will last a long time, and is at least "average" security. I've seen prices for mortise lock cylinders ranging from $12-$75 in quantity 1 (we will be buying 420). Not sure what to budget, or what brand/model to choose. So I'm turning to you fine folks. What do you suggest?

[Squelchtone]

Hello,

This will drive the price a little bit, but do you need a maintenance man to be able to access an apartment in case of emergency, or are these the types of apartments that people own, so they are not master keyed.

It's true that you probably do not need to buy Medeco high security mortise cylinders, but there is something to be said for finding a system that has some kind of key control, unless you do not care if an apartment resident can go down to the local hardware store and make more copies for friends and family members.

The jimmy proof locks, those are going to use a rim cylinder.. Are you saying many of these are one off and unique keys and brands of lock and people will continue to maintain and use those secondary locks as they see fit? If this is a rental situation and a maintenance man needs to open a door because of a water leak, and you have the key to the new mortise cylinder, how do you overcome not having the key to the secondary rim cylinder which operates the jimmy proof deadbolt?

Sargent comes to mind as a good brand, their headquarters are up 95 in New Haven CT. You could also look into Arrow, Baldwin, Corbin Russwin, Marks, Schlage, Mul-T-Lock, Abloy Protec, and Medeco as already mentioned. There is also BEST if you want SFIC interchangeable cores, but this scenario doesn't sound like the right fit for SFIC cores.

Are you replacing the entire mortise lock assembly that slides into a pocked or hollow inside the door, or just the screw in cylinders? Will anyone be servicing the existing mortise lock sets, after 60 years they are bound to be dirty inside, require some oil or grease and probably have some parts that need to be replaced.

I would like to hear more details, and I'm sure others here will have their own questions and good ideas on which direction you should go it for cylinders.

Thanks
Squelchtone

[dschwarz2]

Thanks for the response, I'll interleave answers to your questions

This will drive the price a little bit, but do you need a maintenance man to be able to access an apartment in case of emergency, or are these the types of apartments that people own, so they are not master keyed.

These apartments are owned by the occupants. We require the owner to keep one set of keys in our high security key vault. Access to that vault is restricted, for emergency use, and all access is logged. A master key system would allow too many people uncontrolled access, and therefore we do not want it.

It's true that you probably do not need to buy Medeco high security mortise cylinders, but there is something to be said for finding a system that has some kind of key control, unless you do not care if an apartment resident can go down to the local hardware store and make more copies for friends and family members.

It's something we will consider, but it adds significantly to our costs. Owners control their own keys and who get copies (with the exception of one set in our key vault, above.) We might give the owners the option of paying more for a Medeco cylinder if they want it.

The jimmy proof locks, those are going to use a rim cylinder.. Are you saying many of these are one off and unique keys and brands of lock and people will continue to maintain and use those secondary locks as they see fit?

Yes.

If this is a rental situation and a maintenance man needs to open a door because of a water leak, and you have the key to the new mortise cylinder, how do you overcome not having the key to the secondary rim cylinder which operates the jimmy proof deadbolt?

We require one copy of both the jimmy proof lock key and the mortise lock key to be in our key vault.

Sargent comes to mind as a good brand, their headquarters are up 95 in New Haven CT. You could also look into Arrow, Baldwin, Corbin Russwin, Marks, Schlage, Mul-T-Lock, Abloy Protec, and Medeco as already mentioned. There is also BEST if you want SFIC interchangeable cores, but this scenario doesn't sound like the right fit for SFIC cores.

Thanks for the list of brands to consider. If you have any specific model recommendations within those brands, that'd be great, otherwise we'll ask the dealer for recommendations.

Are you replacing the entire mortise lock assembly that slides into a pocked or hollow inside the door, or just the screw in cylinders? Will anyone be servicing the existing mortise lock sets, after 60 years they are bound to be dirty inside, require some oil or grease and probably have some parts that need to be replaced.

We are replacing just the screw-in cylinders. The existing mortise lock sets are the responsibilty of the apartment owner. Our superintendent can do light maintenance on the mortise locks, and the owners call a locksmith to do anything more complex.

[demux]

Based on your followups, it sounds like you probably don't really need high security or key control (and in fact might not even want it if the occupants own the units and you're expecting them to be responsible for handing out keys).

I would agree with Squechtone's suggestion on Sargent, they are indeed a good brand. I'd also look at Schlage or Corbin Russwin, maybe also Yale. These are all good brands that would have quality stuff at a moderate price point (probably in the neighborhood of $50/cylinder give or take).

In my mind though, brand is less important than specs, and you'll probably want to look for cylinders that are at least 6 pin, commercial grade 2 or higher (to make sure you don't need to replace them all again in 5 or 10 years), and if you're not going with a restricted keyway I'd at least look for one that's not super common (read: probably not one of these).

If I were doing this, my starting point would probably be a Schlage original Everest, in a keyway other than C123 or C145. It's a quality cylinder, meets all the specs I laid out above, is common enough that you should have no issues getting parts, and has the extra check pin which makes manipulation just a hair more difficult if someone doesn't know about it and how to deal with it (if you're concerned with that at all). But that's just a personal preference on my part, I'm not saying these cylinders are significantly better than what's already been recommended.

[Raymond]

Whichever mortise cylinder you choose do not forget to check the tail piece of the original cylinder so you can order a lock with a similar tail piece. Otherwise the new lock may not work well or at all.

[cledry]

What brand are the existing mortise locks? You say you are replacing the handles on the mortise locks as well?

[Evan]

I'm on the board of directors of a New York City co-op apartment building. 420 apartments in all, constructed in 1960. We are doing a renovation and part of the work will require replacing the mortise lock cylinders in all 420 apartment doors. (We are switching from brass trim to stainless steel trim, we're doing the cylinder swap for aesthetics, but we also think that after 60 years, some of those lock cylinders could do with replacing.)

At the time the building was built, there was no lobby security and our neighborhood was fairly dangerous. Everyone in the building added a supplemental jimmyproof lock above the mortise lock. Those are staying in place. We now have 24 hour lobby security and the neighborhood is extremely safe compared to how it was in the 1960s and 1970s.

So - we don't need the ultimate in high security for the mortise lock cylinder. But I want something that is a quality mechanism, will last a long time, and is at least "average" security. I've seen prices for mortise lock cylinders ranging from $12-$75 in quantity 1 (we will be buying 420). Not sure what to budget, or what brand/model to choose. So I'm turning to you fine folks. What do you suggest?

How much "renovation" are you doing to the building ? Hardware from the 1960's is definitely not ADA compliant, if door hardware is part of a remodel you might bring up accessibility issues and trigger replacing door hardware to maintain code compliance.

Are the rim cylinders of the jimmy-proof locks being included in the appearance upgrade as well ?

How much to budget is something you would determine by writing up a Request For Quotes document, describing the products and finishes you are looking for:

Example - 420 mortise cylinders keyed differently, 6 pin, finish US 26D (Satin Chrome because woah nelly wait until you see what stainless steel costs for lock trim). Ask for a low, medium and high cost option from two manufacturers non-high security product line.

Submit your requirements to several locksmith businesses and you will have quotes to provide identical services at different costs and you can choose which option you like the most and go with it.

Thanks for the response, I'll interleave answers to your questions

This will drive the price a little bit, but do you need a maintenance man to be able to access an apartment in case of emergency, or are these the types of apartments that people own, so they are not master keyed.

These apartments are owned by the occupants. We require the owner to keep one set of keys in our high security key vault. Access to that vault is restricted, for emergency use, and all access is logged. A master key system would allow too many people uncontrolled access, and therefore we do not want it.

Now that you are doing renovations to the building and replacing door hardware, you might be required to install master keyed locks by the AHJ. You would lose any grandfathered exceptions you were existing in once you start renovating those fixtures of the building. Does NYFD maintain its own key vault with their own access to your building ?

It's true that you probably do not need to buy Medeco high security mortise cylinders, but there is something to be said for finding a system that has some kind of key control, unless you do not care if an apartment resident can go down to the local hardware store and make more copies for friends and family members.

It's something we will consider, but it adds significantly to our costs. Owners control their own keys and who get copies (with the exception of one set in our key vault, above.) We might give the owners the option of paying more for a Medeco cylinder if they want it.

That will be your un-doing. You will get a better price for 420 of the same product than you will for 200 of this option and 200 of that option. This is not an a la carte type thing, you are deciding the new standard for the building and it will be an all or none type thing unless you want to pay more.

Example: Qty = 1 of a lock set is $450 each Qty = 50 of same lock set is $300 each changing type and model number is a different product and quantity discounts might not apply.

The jimmy proof locks, those are going to use a rim cylinder.. Are you saying many of these are one off and unique keys and brands of lock and people will continue to maintain and use those secondary locks as they see fit?

Yes.

I do not see why, since you are changing things for appearance. Why not update those cylinders as well since the odds are against any of them being "stainless steel" in appearance. Plus you can get a mortise cylinder and rim cylinder keyed alike for each door and have fewer keys to have to keep track of by half.

If this is a rental situation and a maintenance man needs to open a door because of a water leak, and you have the key to the new mortise cylinder, how do you overcome not having the key to the secondary rim cylinder which operates the jimmy proof deadbolt?

We require one copy of both the jimmy proof lock key and the mortise lock key to be in our key vault.

Sargent comes to mind as a good brand, their headquarters are up 95 in New Haven CT. You could also look into Arrow, Baldwin, Corbin Russwin, Marks, Schlage, Mul-T-Lock, Abloy Protec, and Medeco as already mentioned. There is also BEST if you want SFIC interchangeable cores, but this scenario doesn't sound like the right fit for SFIC cores.

Thanks for the list of brands to consider. If you have any specific model recommendations within those brands, that'd be great, otherwise we'll ask the dealer for recommendations.

Sargent, Corbin Russwin, Schlage are all good recommendations.

Are you replacing the entire mortise lock assembly that slides into a pocked or hollow inside the door, or just the screw in cylinders? Will anyone be servicing the existing mortise lock sets, after 60 years they are bound to be dirty inside, require some oil or grease and probably have some parts that need to be replaced.

We are replacing just the screw-in cylinders. The existing mortise lock sets are the responsibility of the apartment owner. Our superintendent can do light maintenance on the mortise locks, and the owners call a locksmith to do anything more complex.

I think you are looking at a potential headache if you stick to that position. You are likely going to trigger a hardware replacement issue due to updating the brass trim to newer trim. The new trim will have to be lever handle sets to comply with ADA accessibility standards in the building code. You have not made it known what brand of hardware you are using presently, this is pertinent information as many lock manufacturers who made and sold products in the 1960's are long out of business. Also, some older lock products would have a more limited availability of retro fit trims for ADA compliance so those factors might drive what choices have to be made.

~~ Evan