National Lock Co. dial safe

[chuckg]

Hello, everyone. Cool forum here....reminds me of a vintage woodworking machinery forum I belong to. Looks like it uses the same platform. Anyway....

I picked up this safe on craigslist a while back. I could not get the combination to work, so I brought it to the local locksmith. I think they didn't want to deal with it, or else thought I wouldn't want to pay for the work it would take to get it working again, so they said there was something wrong in the lock mechanism and gave it back. I was about to curb it and eat the $30 it cost me, but then decided to open the mechanism.

Here's the safe:

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Not sure the maker of the safe itself, but the lock is by National Lock Co. of Rockford Illinois. I opened up the case and this is what I found:

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A few questions: The very first piece to come off under the cover plate, the thick brass wheel with the 1,2,3,4 around the square hole, this is what ultimately catches the part that releases the bolt and opens the safe, right? On one side of the "dial spindle" there is stamped a "1". I'm thinking this is supposed to line up with the "1" on the brass piece so the numbers on the dial line up correctly with the numbers on the inner wheels. Is that correct? Here's that "dial spindle." There are no other numbers, 2,3,4 or anything else, stamped on any other sides of that spindle. I've been installing the spindle through that piece as I've just described in the half-dozen times I've had it apart and back together again.

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The topmost wheel, or first wheel under the thick one, corresponds to the 3rd number of the combo, yes? The middle wheel is the second number and the bottom wheel is the first number? Or is it reversed on this mechanism?

For each wheel there is a "finger washer" and a "tabbed washer." If the "finger" is inserted into hole number 18 on the bottom wheel, then the third number of the combo is 18, right? I think the "finger washer" goes directly on top of it's wheel, with the tabbed washer on top of that. I had it together the other way ("tabbed washer" between wheel and "finger washer") and the dial didn't spin well at all. In this order it spins really nice.

On the back of the safe is an old combination tag:

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I have no idea how right or wrong it is. When I first got the safe I tried it many times, and could not get it to work. Since I've taken it apart, I put the "tabbed washers" back into the holes that are closest to that combination tag, since there are no odd numbers on any of the three wheels: 24,14, 28.

Any idea if the directions are right on that tag? Should it start left, or right? With 4 turns, 3, 2.... I have no idea.

I still cannot get it to work. Ultimately, if possible, I'd like to use it. I don't care what the combination is, as long as it has one. It doesn't appear to me that anything is missing or broken inside, but certainly you folks may know better. It doesn't appear worn. There were no shavings or brass dust in there when I opened it. The oil is mine. It was pretty dry when I first opened it, but seemed to operate ok that way. I figured a little oil couldn't hurt. I'm pretty sure this is within my skillset with some guidance, though I've been wrong before. I'm a carpenter/remodeler by trade and a sometimes-restorer of vintage woodworking machinery, power tools and handplanes. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can post more pics or give more info at your request (I hope I posted the pics right to this point).

Thank you!

Chuck G.
Syracuse, NY

[bitbuster]

Container is probably a Meilink or Victor. Did you mark spindle before you took it off the cam marked 1,2,3,4? Moving the spindle off the cam is 1 way to change combo. Forget the 0 in the combo. It's just someone's way to tell you to start at 0 but its insignificant. CCW is LEFT, CW is RIGHT. Your combo should be L 4 times to 15, R 3 times to 25, L 2 times to 28, R to dead stop. ( note number where it stops). If you didn't mark the spindle and cam when you took it off then you'll have to try the spindle at each spot on the cam. Also see that the flys on each wheel may have been moved. In this case, reassemble the lock as is. Put spindle in any of the 4 positions. Now, with lock secured to container, while looking through the lock peep hole, dial at least 4 times to the left until you see the wheel gate line up under the fence. Then go R 3 times until the gate lines up under the fence. Now go L 2 times watching for gate to line up under fence. Now go slowly R until you see the fence drop into the gate and continue R until lockbolt is retracted. IF this doesn't work then use dial sequence 3L-2R-1L- R to stop. Only if you reassemble it as you took it apart,
and all the flys and wheels and spindle and cam are all in original positions, then combo you have been given, will work.

[MartinHewitt]

Which side of the lock is towards the dial? The side with the 1234-part? Or the three wheels with holes? Is in the case on the three-wheels side a hole where the tip of the hook/lever is?

There is a lot of oil visible on the wheels. That is much to much. It just attracts dirt.

[chuckg]

Hey, I got it!

Thanks, bitbuster. I did notice the peephole, but did not notice that it lined up with the fence. I took the lock off the safe, inserted the dial spindle (with the "1" on the spindle lined up with the "1" on the cam) and held the assembly in my hand. I turned the dial just as you said, left first, until the first gate lined up, then checked the dial for the number, and wrote that down. Did the same for the next two wheels/numbers. After a few tries to get the number of turns right, boom, it fell into place and the bolt retracted with a short turn to the right. Turns out the correct sequence is two or more (unlimited) turns to the left to the first number, then right around once past that first number to the second number, then back left directly to the third number. A short turn to the right then opens the bolt. So the safe is about as secure as your average junior-high locker. But it works! Thank you so much! Funny that two of the numbers in the working combo are very close to two of the numbers written on that old tag, but one number was quite a bit off.

And, yes, I did try the combo successfully about 10 times in a row before I had the guts to lock the safe. It opens silky smooth!

MartinHewitt, I did wipe most of the oil out first. I should know better.....I try to avoid oil and grease as much as possible in lubing my woodworking machinery (dry lubes and paraffin wax are your friends here) because it just attracts sawdust and eventually creates a paste that is anything but a lubricant. To answer your question, the cam (hey, I'm learning!) is toward the dial, and the wheel stack is toward the back of the case (the opposite side of the cover).

Well that's about it, I guess. But if someone out there has trouble with a similar lock, I hope this helps them out. I'm happy to answer any questions to that end as well.

Thanks again! I'm pretty happy I didn't just drop this thing on the curb!

Chuck

[cozmicray]

I have a lock just like this one. I don't know combination?
I took it all apart. I think I know how it goes back together.
Except?
1. How does spring on pawl get installed? I am baffled?
2. How do I figure out the combination?

In process of de-greasing all the parts right now.

Will post pictures soon.

National Lock Co. Rockford, Ill USA AA-140

Thank you

[MartinHewitt]

Regarding the combo: Theoretically there are numbers on the wheels which should specify the combo by setting the pins there, but the better and usual ways is by removing the cover and observing at which dial positions the gates of the wheels are under the fence.

[Bwing_123]

Hi. Do you still have this safe?

[TracyTigger1]

I have inherited an unopened lock box that looks like the first photo but, the box is black and had a label on the front with ‘Herring Hall Marvin, Hamilton, Ohio written on it. The lock is National Lock Co. Rockford, Ill USA.

Any thoughts if I can ‘hack’ or if there was a master code?

Thanks for any help!!!

P.S. I don’t want to drill unless I have to… this was my father’s safe & I want to keep it original