Practicing manipulation with my new audio amplifier

[femurat]

After a few years, I'm trying to get my touch back. Not being able to open a vault door gave me the motivation to train again. So I'm spending at least one hour a day playing with my old safe locks.
I also ordered an audio amplifier and a contact microphone to play with.
Here are some manipulations that went smoothly









There are some more, that are not interesting enough to end up here.

And then, with one of these locks set on an arbitrary combo by a person not interested in locks, I hit a wall. The combo may be inserted badly, unusual or even "illegal" (forbidden zone, fly safety eccetera), but I should be able to open it anyway.
Here are the graphs I made till now. Reminds me my latest failure. Looks like there's something that I still don't get.



With graph #1 I got a clear gate signature around 83 and another one, small but still interesting, around 68.
Then, due to an unusual high low test result at 63, I waste time in graph #2. I only discover that it's useless to graph wheel #3 between 10 and 45 because it's clearly too high.
Time to get back in track with graph #3, but I got nothing more than a low area between 55 and 80.



At that point, I decided to test wheel #3 around that promising gate signature and chose 82 as its center. Unfortunately, it's not a gate, otherwise it wouldn't have masked the other two wheels between 22 and 70.
There's still a small interesting point at 83.



Any hint on how to continue?

Thanks

[MartinHewitt]

Hi,

Your Hi/Lo tests show IMHO only that it is probably not W3. So graph 4 was not very promising.

I don't know which lock model it is. 3330? In any case I would do wheel isolation at this point and keep the direction of found low regions. In graph 2 you have R63 L68 R78 or 88 as slightly best points in a low region. I would graph R63 AL R78/88, probably R63 AL R88 and then when there is a low point I can move W3 quickly to R78 to see if it improves the setting.

[femurat]

There's R6700 series Sargent Greenleaf Nicholasville ky USA engraved on the back. There's also a UL ULC sticker Group 2 36MM.

I wrote below the graph 1 that 83 was on wheel 1 or 2. But when I saw the inconclusive graphs 2 and 3 I panicked and questioned my high low tests. You're right about graph 4 being not needed.

I'll follow your suggestions after dinner. I'll have pizza and beer... a small beer to stay focused.

Cheers

[prevariikation]

No advice here, I just love how peaceful your photos look

[femurat]

OPEN!

Thank you Martin for the suggestion. Your graph R63 AL R78 made me find 24 in wheel #2.
Then, silly me, graphed wheel #1 from 70 to 20 instead of testing 83... as soon as I tested 83 24 78 I got the lock open and locked. I had to remove the back to lift the fence.
Last number was 7...

I'll post two "peaceful" graph pictures tomorrow.

Goodnight

[femurat]

Here are the new graphs I made. Graph #5 following Martin suggestions, made me find a clear gate signature on wheel #2 at L24. Then in graph #6 I tried to find a low spot on wheel #3 but didn't find anything important.
So I went on with graph #7. I should have tested my very wide gate at 83 but almost forgot about it. When I completed the part of the graph that could have a gate, from 70 going Right to 20, I examined the previous graph and noticed the interesting spot at 83. As soon as I tested the combo, I was still turning and the lock got stuck. Turns out the last number was 7. 83-24-7.

This manipulation taught me to always trust a gate when I see it.

Now it's time to get the combo changed and try again.

Cheers

[MartinHewitt]

Great! And don't forget that safe!

[femurat]

That safe is my nightmare. Can't wait to go there and have my chance to get it open.

Cheers

[MartinHewitt]

It will be your great victory!

[femurat]

Martin, thank you for your support and encouragement!



Tonight I think I got my personal record: 34 minutes to open this same lock. This time, ironically, I didn't use the audio amplifier.

The main reason of this speedy opening is luck, because I found a gate right at the beginning of my graphs: The first one at 16, saving me the time and effort to test the rest of the numbers. And the second number almost halfway to the end, at 55.
Also, I decided to brute force wheel #2, without graphing, every 2 increments. This is a risky decision, because if one of the other wheels number is wrong, I don't get the gate position on the tested wheel. But it reduces the time needed drastically.

Another reason is that, due to the less work required, I decided to assign the gate found at 16 on graph #1 at wheel #1, and to test wheel #3. I would have tested #2 and #3 together, but followed the suggestion to isolate the wheel. Another lucky decision.
I haven't changed the combo yet, so I could test #2 and #3 together to see if the gate would have showed up anyway.
To avoid the risk of missing the gate due to its offset, I dialed all the wheels to the Left at 16, then moved only wheel #3 Right to 16, and then started the test going Left. This way I got the gate position in the same direction I have to dial it.

Another thing that sped up the process was the decision to write down the dots on the graph only when they changed, and not every time I tested a number. This prevented me to draw them slightly over or under the line, loosing the difference between shy and bold readings. But I don't need such precision because the gate reveal himself with more than 0.1 increment in this lock.

Feels good!

Cheers

[MartinHewitt]

You might have found two gates on the AWL graph.

You could have redone your Hi/Lo test of 16 with the known W3, but as you picked the right wheel correctly by chance it would actually have been slower without benefit.

On a non-graphing pass you can still look at one CP and remember where a low spot or a dip without an open is. This doesn't cost so much time and is helpful when the lock won't open in this pass.

[femurat]

For science sake, I continued the AWL graph and didn't find other gates.

Then I did the high low test with the gate found on wheel #3, dialing all the numbers Left to avoid confusion:
16-21-55 5,65 10,7
21-16-55 5,5 10,9
---
16-10-55 5,55 10,8
10-16-55 5,5 10,9
So this time I would be sure 16 was on wheel #1.

Good tip to keep in mind one cp while brute forcing.

Cheers

[MartinHewitt]

And now back to the Real-Life[TM] problem ...

I am sure you will get the safe open the next time.

[lojo16]

After a few years, I'm trying to get my touch back. Not being able to open a vault door gave me the motivation to train again. So I'm spending at least one hour a day playing with my old safe locks.
I also ordered an audio amplifier and a contact microphone to play with.
Here are some manipulations that went smoothly









There are some more, that are not interesting enough to end up here.

And then, with one of these locks set on an arbitrary combo by a person not interested in locks, I hit a wall. The combo may be inserted badly, unusual or even "illegal" (forbidden zone, fly safety eccetera), but I should be able to open it anyway.
Here are the graphs I made till now. Reminds me my latest failure. Looks like there's something that I still don't get.



With graph #1 I got a clear gate signature around 83 and another one, small but still interesting, around 68.
Then, due to an unusual high low test result at 63, I waste time in graph #2. I only discover that it's useless to graph wheel #3 between 10 and 45 because it's clearly too high.
Time to get back in track with graph #3, but I got nothing more than a low area between 55 and 80.



At that point, I decided to test wheel #3 around that promising gate signature and chose 82 as its center. Unfortunately, it's not a gate, otherwise it wouldn't have masked the other two wheels between 22 and 70.
There's still a small interesting point at 83.



Any hint on how to continue?

Thanks

Hi, First time posting. I'm curious about your audio amp and mike. Do you need pretty good silence in order to work with these tools ? Would noise or music inside the safe affect your ability to hear what you need to hear with your new equipment, in order for you to succeed in cracking it ?

[femurat]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

Yes, if there's noise in the room, for example if the TV is on, I hear it amplified and it bothers me. Silence is perfect. If there's some noise, you can play with the equalizer and try to reduce it, but it's not easy.

Do you have something specific in mind?

Cheers