Herring Hall Martin double door safe with Yale dial

[GCamp0]

Hello all. I have a fairly old (guessing about 100 years +) Herring Hall Marvin double door safe with the dial marked Herring Hall Marvin on the rim of the dial knob and Yale in the center. It is a 0-99 dial. It is locked closed and there is no combination. I've been reading and watching videos to the point of information overload. I gather that this lock mechanism is the "straight tailpiece" type, because when "opening" pressure is applied to the handle it binds the dial. I believe it to be a 3 wheel pack, picking up all the wheels left, stopping at 0 and going through the 3-2-1 sequence feeling the wheel pin contact at each sequence. I've tried the 4-3-2-1 sequence, but I don't hear or feel a fourth wheel pin contact.

Whether I pick up all wheels left or all wheels right, or just dial randomly I noticed that while applying opening pressure to the door handle, when I turn the dial CW and reach 5 the lever moves slightly further and then the dial turns freely to 95 and resists turning further. It will turn freely back and forth between 5 and 95 with lever pressure applied. If I go CCW it does the exact same thing, but in reverse (lever moves slightly further at 95 and it will turn freely back and forth between 95 and 5). While holding considerable pressure on the lever with the dial in these positions you cannot turn the dial past 5 or 95 unless you really twist it hard. Maybe a false gateway? Really big though, spanning 10 digits.

I have also noticed while holding lever pressure, that a slight notch (for lack of a better word) can be felt at 37, but the lever does not move any further. Wheels can be picked up or in any position, the "notch" still feels the same. Am I on the right track and if so, how hard is it to manipulate this lock? Additionally, does this dial hard stop on the last correct combination number or do you have dial to 40 or some other position? Any help is appreciated.

[bitbuster]

Photos, photos, photos...can be very helpful. From what you have described the lock may possibly be the Yale HE. This lock was used exclusively on HHM safes. Of course, the lock could also be another variety of Yale lock, maybe the Yale OB. The dial does not come to a stop on the HE. Turn dial to '0', turn handle to force fence up and into the gates. Also, the lock will bind when pressure is put on the handle while turning dial.

[GCamp0]

I am going to re-post this for two reasons. I now have photos and I stupidly misspelled one of the names repeatedly in the post.

[GCamp0]

This is a re-post due to misspellings in the previous. Now with photos!

Hello all. I have a fairly old (guessing about 100 years +) Herring Hall Marvin double door safe with the dial marked Herring Hall Marvin on the rim of the dial knob and Yale in the center. It is a 0-99 dial. It is locked closed and there is no combination. I've been reading and watching videos to the point of information overload. I gather that this lock mechanism is the "straight tailpiece" type, because when "opening" pressure is applied to the handle it binds the dial. I believe it to be a 3 wheel pack, picking up all the wheels left, stopping at 0 and going through the 3-2-1 sequence feeling the wheel pin contact at each sequence. I've tried the 4-3-2-1 sequence, but I don't hear or feel a fourth wheel pin contact.

Whether I pick up all wheels left or all wheels right, or just dial randomly I noticed that while applying opening pressure to the door handle, when I turn the dial CW and reach 5 the lever moves slightly further and then the dial turns freely to 95 and resists turning further. It will turn freely back and forth between 5 and 95 with lever pressure applied. If I go CCW it does the exact same thing, but in reverse (lever moves slightly further at 95 and it will turn freely back and forth between 95 and 5). While holding considerable pressure on the lever with the dial in these positions you cannot turn the dial past 5 or 95 unless you really twist it hard. Maybe a false gateway? Really big though, spanning 10 digits.

I have also noticed while holding lever pressure, that a slight notch (for lack of a better word) can be felt at 37, but the lever does not move any further. Wheels can be picked up or in any position, the "notch" still feels the same. Am I on the right track and if so, how hard is it to manipulate this lock? Additionally, does this dial hard stop on the last correct combination number or do you have dial to 40 or some other position? Any help is appreciated.








ks pic

[Squelchtone]

I am going to re-post this for two reasons. I now have photos and I stupidly misspelled one of the names repeatedly in the post.

No need to repost, we're more than happy to edit spelling and help insert photos, just ask.

I'm going to merge your posts together...

[bitbuster]

With Yale and HHM both on dial nose its a good bet that the lock is an HE

[MartinHewitt]

Yup. Looks like a HE.

[GCamp0]

Thank you bitbuster and MartinHewitt for your replies and the ID of the lock being an HE. Since then I have searched the forum for the typical HE dial sequence which I found to be 4L-3R-2L-1R, with 1R landing on 0. While searching the forum I stumbled upon the "retired" safe combination thing, the combination being set to 25-50-75-0 or 50-50-50-0 or another simple series of numbers. Armed with that information I began trying the retired combos and the first one I tried opened it. It is the 50-50-50-0 combination. I couldn't have done it myself without checking in here at lockpicking101.com.

On the lower interior large door it says "MANUFACTURED EXPRESSLY FOR ----------" The phantom lettering underneath that looks like it might say WATERSON. I'll have to look with better lighting. I'm pretty sure it's empty, with all the keys being in their doors, but I haven't completely searched it yet. More pictures to come later.

Thanks again,
Greg


how to know screen resolution

[MartinHewitt]

That's awesome! There are also two banker's keys.

[GCamp0]

It seems you're quite knowledgeable about these safes. When you say bankers keys, are those the secondary key needed to open the deposit doors? If so, there are two of the smaller keys present. There's also 6 or 7 keys on the ring hanging from the big bottom door keyhole. What would your best guess be as to what year this safe dates back to?

[MartinHewitt]

Yes, the banker's keys are for the small key way. One is the customer's key, which is unique for the door. The other is the banker's key, which is shared by multiple, possibly all doors.

HHM was founded at about 1892 and bought by Diebold in 1959. I think the key for dating this safe better is "San Francisco". Later safes all said "Hamilton". Unfortunately I can't find much about HHM online to really narrow this done. My guess would be 1900+/-10.

[GCamp0]

That's great info, thanks. I have noticed info through Google is vague. I have found more info here than anywhere else. Another thing I've been unable to locate on it is the serial number. I' looked at all the usual places that I've seen discussed on this forum with no luck. I'm actually out of commission right now (total left hip replacement), but in 3 or 4 weeks I'll get back to it. It's not stored here at home.