Sargent and Greenleaf Issues

[BACone]

I have an older S&G safe that I have never had any trouble with until yesterday. I dialed in the combo LRL and last turn to the right... nothing. Tried again, same.
Got on the internet and went through all the trouble shooting tips. Dialed the whole combo one number up and down up to +5 -5 in case of shift. Dialed combo and turned back to 8 and banged with hammer. "Repeat as necessary" tried 4 times. No good.

Read through the S&G manual and got to "fly in the ointment". I can feel resistance at 70 but back to 40 all I can hear is a slight click around 10-20 but no additional resistance until back to 90.

What's next? Gotta get it open.

It happens to be about 2 hours from any town and that one is small with no one who can work on safes. Thanks for any additional information and assistance.

B

[Squelchtone]

Good afternoon, and thank you for posting.

A photo of the safe would help us so we can figure out the mechanism inside your safe. S&G doesn't make safes, they just make the locks, and they have several different models. Does your dial ring have a crows foot at 12 oclock or a star? is there a hash mark at 10 oclock or 2 oclock on the dial ring?

photos may be uploaded to a site such as https://imgbb.com/ (once there, click Stat Uploading and choose the image file from your computer)

May I ask when the last time was that the safe was opened successfully? Is there a chance this is not the combination for it or the dialing order is off (number of turns, direction)

Thank you,
Squelchtone

[BACone]

Thanks for the reply. It will be a while before I get some photos. The safe is at different location.
No star or crows foot. Second index mark is at 10. Plain chrome dial interior is black with white writing.
Opened the safe multiple times in the past without issue. Combo is correct. Number of turns is also correct.

Thanks again!
I'll keep you posted.

B

[MartinHewitt]

If the second index is around 10: Are you sure LRL is correct? The index position sounds like a left handed lock, which is RLR.

[1d4]

I had a customer come in once who said he'd been dialing his safe open reliably for decades, until one day it wouldn't open. I had him show me how he did it. He had the dialing sequence backwards, but swore he had done it that way his whole life. I had him reverse the sequence, and he was able to dial the safe open again. It is like something just flipped in his head one morning that made him think he had always been dialing it the opposite direction. Not saying this is what is going on with your lock... there could be a variety of mechanical malfunctions in your lock that is preventing you from dialing it open. But this thread reminded me of that customer and how the human mind is an incredible thing which loves to transpose numbers, reverse dialing procedures, forget, or just plain make stuff up!

[BACone]

God I wish that were the case. I forget the lyrics to songs I play on guitar but unfortunately I'm dialing it right. 4L 3R 2L back R to when it stops. Just like the other 4 safes. I ran around and opened them all cause I was freaked out.I'll have photos around Thanksgiving when I get back there. I REALLY hope that this turns out to be something simple.... Until then thanks again for all your advice so far.

[MartinHewitt]

If you check a combination movement, than 5 number steps are in most locks to much. I would go in steps of max. 2, better 1.

[BACone]

Here are images of the lock.



I tried again to open the safe. Go to the last turn and banged away at it.. "Repeat as necessary"... Right, like 6 times with a 8 pound hammer (On a board stuck to the safe above the lock). Nothing...

Tried to dial the numbers one off the combo, then 2 off the combo up to 5. Nothing....

Definitely unhappy at this point. I had no idea that this was even a possibility. Safe is too heavy to move and too far away from any town to have a locksmith come. Safe is full of family heirlooms. Thinking I want to replace all the dials on my other safes. Some of them are 100+ Years old. Old post office safe from when we ran the town post office (No town there anymore) Old jewelry safe, has to be 1 1/2 thick steel must weigh 200lbs (tipped the back end of the tractor up when we moved it) for an 18" cube.

Thanks for all the advice so far.
What next?

Happy Holidays to ALL!

[Squelchtone]

Could you share photo of the entire front of the safe so we can see what brand and model you have? That may yield ideas for getting it open and how the lock and bolt layout inside the door is configured.

I would dial the combination as you normally would, and on the last turn when you turn Right to the area between 90 and 10 where you would hear it click and the dial would stop dead.. dial your last turn and stop on 0, now rock the dial quickly Left and Right between 90 to 10, back and fourth in quick jolts, do this motion/flutter quickly back and fourth for at least 10 seconds and see if the fence drops into the gates. The idea here is that one of your wheels is off a dash, and doing this to the dial is enough to align the 3 wheel gates and allow the fence to drop in, or if your lever arm is not dropping, it may be enough commotion to motivate it to drop in.

When you added or subtracted from the combination, did you do it one wheel at a time or did you add a number to every number of the combination?

If combination is 10 20 30

I would add or subtract to just one number of the combination at a time and try dialing:

8 20 30, 9 20 30, 11 20 30, 12 20 30

10 18 30, 10 19 30, 10 21 30, 10 22 30

10 20 28, 10 20 29, 10 20 31, 10 20 32


Looking forward to seeing the entire safe,
Squelchtone

[MartinHewitt]

First thing: Don't use force as long as there are other options. Force creates often new problems in safes.

Did you do something unusual before the problem?

S&G has there an extensive manual about their mechanical combination locks including diagnosis of problems: https://sargentandgreenleaf.com/knowled ... ock-guide/

A few specific points, which are probably also covered in this document:

Might the dial ring have shifted?

If a combination shifts because of a defect in a wheel it is most often the last number, because this wheel gets moved around most. You could check by modifying the last number by -/+ 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

[BACone]

I'll give the "flutter technique" a try. It seems like its not catching on the last dial turn.... No clicking sound at all.

I added one number to each in the combo. Too many possible combinations the other way. I'm pretty sure it's just not catching on the last turn.
I used "force" as per the S&G trouble shooting. Get to the last turn back and then hit with hammer in an effort to get it to engage.

The front of the safe has no markings. Just a big brown door. Straight handle. I'll be back around Christmas and take some more pictures.

What would be the procedure if the dial ring had moved. I don't think it did but I'm getting as much information ahead of time as I can.
No reliable internet at location... So I go up and fuss and then come home to write.

It's a family cabin in the mountains. Grandpa started gold mining in area in the 20's. Bought one of the old inns and the land around it.
Been in the family ever since.

[MartinHewitt]

If the dial ring shifts, then all numbers shift in the same manner. To check you can imagine an opening index 1, 2, 3 numbers left and right of the current opening index and dial the combination to this imaginary index.

[Squelchtone]

If the dial ring shifts, then all numbers shift in the same manner. To check you can imagine an opening index 1, 2, 3 numbers left and right of the current opening index and dial the combination to this imaginary index.

Honestly, looking at the photos provided in the thread, I don't see that the dial ring looks like the opening index got bumped or moved from 12 o'clock high, the since the photo is taken at a downward angle and looking straight at the dial, it is more difficult to be sure.

OP, can you twist the dial ring behind the dial? is it loose? is the little tick mark right at 12 o'clock?

Thank you,
Squelchtone

[Squelchtone]

... It seems like its not catching on the last dial turn.... No clicking sound at all. ...

So not catching can mean a few things..

1. One of the 3 combination wheel gates is not aligned to the correct position and on the last turn as you turn the driver wheel to the drop in position, the lever arm/fence cannot drop into the 3 wheel gates because there is a wheel in the way.

2. The lever arm is stuck up for some reason (bad spring, bad luck) and not dropping down even though the gates of each combination wheel *are* aligned correctly under the fence.

Good luck, and keep us posted,

Squelchtone