Maddening mystery situation with lishi pick

[lishi_fan]

I have a lock I can't seem to pick with a KW lishi tool. I've got dozens of locks that have been swapped out and have become practice locks, and this is the only one I can't pick with a lishi. There's nothing fancy about it, and I can pick it counter-clockwise with a Bogota. Here are the details:

Manual clockwise: haven't been able to pick
Manual counter-clockwise: can pick with Bogota, but not easily

After a manual pick, I was able to stuff my lishi tool in the keyway 4 pins in, but it wouldn't go far enough in to decode the 5th pin. The first four pins are 4,6,3,6.

Lishi clockwise: #5 binds, but the pin seems to scrape all the way, with no discernible click. It seems to settle at position 2, but then nothing else binds
Lishi counter-clockwise:
nice click on 1 into proper position 4
2 and 4 seem bound, with the tool not moving the pins at all from their position 6
3 is springy until you reach position 3 (where it should click if it were binding)
5 binds, but again, doesn't click anywhere. With heavy tension, I can get it to kind-of click at position 2, and then sometimes can get #3 to click at its position 4. But no open!

I've tried starting with zero tension, placing the weird #5 at position 6 (then 5,4,3,2,1), THEN applying tension to hold it in place, setting #1 with a nice click, and 2 and 4 stay in place, and 3 stays springy down to its position 4. No open.

I tried for hours. It's driving me mad. I was batting a thousand with the lishi tool before this maddening lock.

Can anyone suggest a reason for this mystery?

[Squelchtone]

Lishi tools are not beginner material, so they do not belong in Ask Beginner Hobby Lock Picking Questions. Please try to post in the appropriate sub-forums to help us reduce clutter and moderator workload of having to move member posts to more appropriate sub-forums.

Moving this to Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]

Thank you,
Squelchtone

[GWiens2001]

Is this a SmartKey or is it a normal pin tumbler lock? (Is there a rectangular hole next to the keyway?)

Gordon

[lishi_fan]

Thanks, Gordon.

It's not a smart lock. I haven't tried picking those yet. (need to find that shim-on-a-pick tool LPL uses in his video)

It's a pretty plain-looking lock with a KW keyway (although not a Kwikset, nor a smart lock)

[Raymond]

Do you have the key and what depth is the last key cut?

Could be spools or bump-stop-pins.

Or, if the last pin is very short and the top pin is too short, the top pin could be coming down completely into the plug so that it is frozen as soon as you apply turning pressure. It will act like a 7 pin.

[lishi_fan]

Solved!

Thanks, Raymond. I dug through the bag of old keys and found the key for this lock. The mystery pin was a '7', which is to say it was cut so low that even the shaft of the lishi tool lifted it up too high.

Fortunately, it was the last pin, so I was able to insert the lishi tool only 4 pins in, place the first 4 pins, then use the end/tip of the lishi tool sort of like a diamond hook pick, pushing the shaft of the lishi tool a tiny bit farther in the lock so that the diagonal tip of the shaft lifted up the last pin into position '7', opening the lock.

Morale of the story, lishi tool might not work if there is a pin with a very deep cut.

Thanks for all the help!

[billdeserthills]

No such thing as a '7' pin in kwikset, so someone keyed that lock incorrectly

[GWiens2001]

No such thing as a '7' pin in kwikset, so someone keyed that lock incorrectly

Actually there is a #7 key pin for Kwikset. It is only used in master keying. That is also why a lot of Kwikset pin kits have a #6 master pin.

Gordon

[billdeserthills]

No such thing as a '7' pin in kwikset, so someone keyed that lock incorrectly

Actually there is a #7 key pin for Kwikset. It is only used in master keying. That is also why a lot of Kwikset pin kits have a #6 master pin.

Gordon

That's true but there is no specified full length pin for a #7 cut

[GWiens2001]

.310”. It even has the same flat bottom as the other genuine KW key pins.

Gordon

[billdeserthills]

.310”. It even has the same flat bottom as the other genuine KW key pins.

Gordon

Really, I've never seen original #7 Kwikset pins sold

[GWiens2001]

Forgot where I found this a few years back, but here is the specs.



Gordon

[billdeserthills]

Sure but you still cannot buy a Kwikset original #7 bottom pin

[demux]

Sure but you still cannot buy a Kwikset original #7 bottom pin

LAB makes them but you have to buy them individually as a refill:

https://www.labpins.com/locksmiths/p/la ... ikset-pins
https://www.americankeysupply.com/produ ... m-pin-8870

I thought they're only used in Titan and a few of their higher end product lines that are meant more for a master system application (apartments, etc).