How To Remove Old Entry Lock?

[jviss]

Greetings,

Among the many locks on my 1925 house are two Sargent entry locks that have knobs and a cylinder for a key on the outside with turn knob on the inside. I can't determine the model yet, but it looks like this:



There's no set screw for the cylinder, and the lock can't be removed until the cylinder is removed.

Question: how is the cylinder removed? I know it unscrews, but surely there must be some mechanism to prevent a crook from just unscrewing it. Is it as simple as being un-screwable when the bolt is not thrown?

p.s. I don't have the key, and I don't think the cylinder is original.

Thanks,

jv

[Safecrackin Sammy]

You have to remove the face plate first to get to the set screw. Just like in the pic.

[GWiens2001]

What Sammy is saying is:

The two slotted screws above and below the latch and bolt on the edge of the door need to be removed. That will allow the face plate to be removed from the mortise lock. Then there will be a smaller slotted screw that you turn to back off the retainer bar that holds the mortise lock cylinder (and presumably thumb turn on the inside of the door) in place. Then you unscrew the cylinders and the mortise lock can be removed. It may require two more screws to be removed from the mortise lock on the edge of the door after the face plate is removed. If so, remove the lock cylinders first.

Gordon

[Squelchtone]

What they said! =)

And here's a This Old House video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZih76869i0

[jviss]

Thank you so much, everyone! Sorry for the lateness of my reply, I forgot to set an alert for replies when I posted. I will try removing the lock this afternoon.

Cheers,

jv

[jviss]

What they said! =)

And here's a This Old House video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZih76869i0

Thanks, but no cigar!

Mine does't have exposed set screws for the lock cylinder.

[jviss]

What Sammy is saying is:

The two slotted screws above and below the latch and bolt on the edge of the door need to be removed. That will allow the face plate to be removed from the mortise lock. Then there will be a smaller slotted screw that you turn to back off the retainer bar that holds the mortise lock cylinder (and presumably thumb turn on the inside of the door) in place. Then you unscrew the cylinders and the mortise lock can be removed. It may require two more screws to be removed from the mortise lock on the edge of the door after the face plate is removed. If so, remove the lock cylinders first.

Gordon

Thanks Gordon, I will try that!

jv

[jviss]

You have to remove the face plate first to get to the set screw. Just like in the pic.

Thanks Sammy, but I don't see that in the pic. ?

[jviss]

Dear friends and colleagues,

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I successfully extricated the lock, and I'm thrilled to start repairing and restoring it.

It was not easy to remove! It's like they mortise was cut close and they hammered the lock in!

There are a few "wrong" screws which will be replaced. Shame is Sargent used bronze, which are virtually unobtainable, so brass will have to do. And, there's one broken flat spring. I found two pieces inside the lock case, but have as yet not determined the correct configuration or location. I've found a couple of locks here with broken flat springs - three, so far - so they have a life of less than 100 years. The coil springs last longer.

The lock is a model 6845, which is the exact one in the catalog page I posted! Is anyone interested in speculating on the design and location of the broken spring? I'm hoping the other one I have has an intact such spring so I can copy it.

In addition, the cylinder lock fitted has a Kwikset SC1 keyway, and it's odd, but at a certain point won't screw in any further. I'm looking to buy a couple of replacement cylinders, but Kwikset would be great as my other doors are keyed alike (by me) and I'd like to continue that trend.

[GWiens2001]

Mortise cylinders with KW1 are easily available.

Also, the threads of the mortise cylinder may be a bit damaged. A locksmith would have a die to clean up the threads, and a tap to do the same for the threads in the mortise lock housing.

Gordon

[jviss]

Update: thanks again to all, I was able to remove the lock. I'm sure it hasn't been taken out in almost 100 years. It wasn't easy, but not too bad. The threads are damaged on the lock cylinder, I may have done that, not sure.

It's quite gunked-up inside, and there are two pieces of flat spring that fell out. I'm pretty sure one's for that top pushbutton, and maybe the other piece is related to it, i.e., maybe it's one spring that broke. I'm hoping that the other lock is intact, and I can see where and how the springs are supposed to go. I've had no luck online finding a diagram of the internals, nor even installation and operating instructions! Any insight is quite welcome. For example, what, exactly, is the function of the pushbuttons? I know it locks the outside knob, but then what? Will the key open it?

In the second image below I've circled the pieces of broken or misplaced springs as found.

Thanks,

jv

[billdeserthills]

Great reason why anyone who opens the case on a mortise lock needs a jig. The jigs I use have a spindle that holds the hubs in place, which really helps to keep those springs from flying away. It can be difficult to impossible to figure out how all that mess goes back together sometimes & being that no parts are available most of the time, you could be better off using cleaning solvent & grease/lube from the outside instead.

I usually blame the thread damage to the cylinders on handyman-types who will simply force the cylinders out many times before loosening the retainer screw

I hope you realize that since the deadbolt portion of your antique lock is only 1/2" long, these are not considered 'adequate protection' against a door shimming attack. Deadbolts were made an inch long back in the 1970's when it was discovered that a wood-framed door could be pried 1/2" without sign of forcible entry. Nice antiques but I would at least have a modern deadbolt mounted on the door as well

Bronze screws
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1239018855 ... ch_click=1

[jviss]

Great reason why anyone who opens the case on a mortise lock needs a jig. The jigs I use have a spindle that holds the hubs in place, which really helps to keep those springs from flying away. It can be difficult to impossible to figure out how all that mess goes back together sometimes & being that no parts are available most of the time, you could be better off using cleaning solvent & grease/lube from the outside instead.

First, thank you for your interest in my project and your reply! The springs in my two locks didn't spring out, they were just broken scraps lying inside the case. I don't know where they came from, except in one instance where the spring is intact in one example and not the other. But both have a very similar spring scrap at the bottom of the case, and I have no idea where it came from. It would be great to have a manual or inside view of this lock when new.

I usually blame the thread damage to the cylinders on handyman-types who will simply force the cylinders out many times before loosening the retainer screw

I think I may have done it, so I can't really blame anyone. Fortunately the damage is to the cylinder and not the lock case.

I hope you realize that since the deadbolt portion of your antique lock is only 1/2" long, these are not considered 'adequate protection' against a door shimming attack. Deadbolts were made an inch long back in the 1970's when it was discovered that a wood-framed door could be pried 1/2" without sign of forcible entry. Nice antiques but I would at least have a modern deadbolt mounted on the door as well

Yes, I do realize this. But, these deadbolts haven't been used in years, and there are additional, modern deadbolts installed in the doors. But, it's worse, and better. . There's glass within inches of all the deadbolts, and when I first looked at the house the deadbolts were secured with keys rather than thumb turns inside. But, the inspector from the fire department would have none of that! The deadbolts were then reverted to thumb turns. The good part is that the house has a whole-house, monitored alarm system, so if someone is so bold as to break in they will soon hear bells and sirens in the house, and soon after sirens on police cars. I will also be installing a modern, 5-lever mortise lock on one of the closets, so it's a more secure storage location than the others. That one has a longer bolt, a barrel and curtain, and anti-saw bolt (spinning steel bars of some sort), false gates, etc. I mean, it's not unpickable, and the door's not unbreakable, but it will slow a thief, and discourage casual snoopers.

Bronze screws
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1239018855 ... ch_click=1

Thank you!

[billdeserthills]

I understand your concerns with glass & the whole 'fire safety' thing. It is frustrating because in Arizona there is always a lot of glass on homes & many convenient rocks laying within reach just outside...

I have Medeco double deadbolts mounted on all my doors but it would only take one throw of a rock to get past thousands of dollars worth of security hardware & into my house. Fortunately I have many heavy-duty safes inside to keep my valuables in

[jviss]

I understand your concerns with glass & the whole 'fire safety' thing. It is frustrating because in Arizona there is always a lot of glass on homes & many convenient rocks laying within reach just outside...

I have Medeco double deadbolts mounted on all my doors but it would only take one throw of a rock to get past thousands of dollars worth of security hardware & into my house. Fortunately I have many heavy-duty safes inside to keep my valuables in

My understanding is that Medeco are very good locks. I recall my father installing a Medco cylinder on out apartment door lock back in the 1970's. We lived in an apartment house in the Bronx and had a Fox Police Lock as well as a rim lock, in addition to the old mortise lock.

By "double deadbolts" do you mean they require a key on both sides?

Anyway, I'd like to refurbish and recommission my original Sargent locks, and maybe even eliminate the modern deadbolts. But I will need more info on the springs, and a couple of new lock cylinders. I might also install a steel door jamb. (But probably not.)

jv