Need Help To Indentify Sargent and Greenleaf Lock

[laxman]

This lock is not like modern locks that will have the change index at 11 o'clock.. this lock has to be dialed to about 1:30 o'clock (about 12 numbers Right from top dead center opening index) for the change key hole to align with the change key cams in each combination wheel. Surprisingly your dial ring does not have line engraved at the change index.

Here is an update. I think that the lock I have has a change index and an open index that are one and the same. I did try a couple iterations of dialing lock combinations to both the left and the right side of TDC, at the approximate positions of 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock. The final location of the square wheels did not agree with the keyhole position in the lock cover.

The only case where all three wheels and their the square holes were aligned with the cover plate keyhole was when the existing, working combination was dialed in, using the opening index as the starting point. At this final resulting position of the wheel stack, I could insert a 1/8" metal round stock thru the wheels and thru the cover keyhole. I could clearly see the square holes, looking thru the keyhole. I want to think the answer has been staring at me, all this while.

The safe was originally made available to me in a locked open position. Access to the lock internals made it straightforward to determine the combination. I never used or considered the significance of the square holes or the keyhole in the lock cover plate to help with any alignment of the wheels or the wheel gaps.

I did order a key. Of course, I think today is a federal holiday, so it will still be a couple of days longer before I can get the key and test my theory.

I don't see a website ability to include multiple quotes in one post, so I generated this same response to Squelchtone and MartinHewitt, in separate posts.

[laxman]

On my 50 number + gap dial (would be about 60 numbers all around if numbered) it is 6 numbers to the right. Scaling it 100:60 it would be 10 numbers.

Here is an update. I think that the lock I have has a change index and an open index that are one and the same. I did try a couple iterations of dialing lock combinations to both the left and the right side of TDC, at the approximate positions of 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock. The final location of the square wheels did not agree with the keyhole position in the lock cover.

The only case where all three wheels and their the square holes were aligned with the cover plate keyhole was when the existing, working combination was dialed in, using the opening index as the starting point. At this final resulting position of the wheel stack, I could insert a 1/8" metal round stock thru the wheels and thru the cover keyhole. I could clearly see the square holes, looking thru the keyhole. I want to think the answer has been staring at me, all this while.

The safe was originally made available to me in a locked open position. Access to the lock internals made it straightforward to determine the combination. I never used or considered the significance of the square holes or the keyhole in the lock cover plate to help with any alignment of the wheels or the wheel gaps.

I did order a key. Of course, I think today is a federal holiday, so it will still be a couple of days longer before I can get the key and test my theory.

I don't see a website ability to include multiple quotes in one post, so I generated this same response to Squelchtone and MartinHewitt, in separate posts.

[Squelchtone]

This lock is not like modern locks that will have the change index at 11 o'clock.. this lock has to be dialed to about 1:30 o'clock (about 12 numbers Right from top dead center opening index) for the change key hole to align with the change key cams in each combination wheel. Surprisingly your dial ring does not have line engraved at the change index.

Here is an update. I think that the lock I have has a change index and an open index that are one and the same. I did try a couple iterations of dialing lock combinations to both the left and the right side of TDC, at the approximate positions of 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock. The final location of the square wheels did not agree with the keyhole position in the lock cover.

The only case where all three wheels and their the square holes were aligned with the cover plate keyhole was when the existing, working combination was dialed in, using the opening index as the starting point. At this final resulting position of the wheel stack, I could insert a 1/8" metal round stock thru the wheels and thru the cover keyhole. I could clearly see the square holes, looking thru the keyhole. I want to think the answer has been staring at me, all this while.

The safe was originally made available to me in a locked open position. Access to the lock internals made it straightforward to determine the combination. I never used or considered the significance of the square holes or the keyhole in the lock cover plate to help with any alignment of the wheels or the wheel gaps.

I did order a key. Of course, I think today is a federal holiday, so it will still be a couple of days longer before I can get the key and test my theory.

I don't see a website ability to include multiple quotes in one post, so I generated this same response to Squelchtone and MartinHewitt, in separate posts.

This would make your lock a "zero change" lock where the change index is at 0 on the dial. You have to be careful with those as the lever arm and fence will want to enter the wheel gates. I think Martin already mentioned that these kinds of locks usually have a metal piece that is attached to the back cover so that when the change key is inserted and turned, the metal piece pivots up and keeps the lever arm elevated above the wheel gates so you can then dial a new combination. I do not see such a piece on your lock so I have to think about the procedure you would use to change your combination.

Could you show us a photo of the inside of your locks cover? And is there another hole in the back of the cover above the change key hole or is the change key hole the only hole in the back of the cover other than the screw hole?

Thank you,
Squelchtone

[MartinHewitt]

Large Kromers have a mechanism attached to the first wheel at the rear of the case which is difficult to see. Small Kromers have a mechanism attached to the cover, so do some Japanese locks. S&G has in their small 6770 a sheet attached to the lever. So there are a few locations where such a mechanism might be located, but it is rare.

Btw. your lock has in the catalog of 1907 the model number C 61.

[laxman]

Note to @MartinHewitt, @Squelchtone, I was trying to return some comments, which included 2 photos but the imgbb dot com site is not responding either via my laptop or my cell phone, so I'll post a little later, when I can.

Thanks, laxman.

[MartinHewitt]

It doesn't work for me either currently.

[Squelchtone]

Note to @MartinHewitt, @Squelchtone, I was trying to return some comments, which included 2 photos but the imgbb dot com site is not responding either via my laptop or my cell phone, so I'll post a little later, when I can.

Thanks, laxman.

You can use something else like imgur.com


https://imgur.com/upload

[laxman]

This lock is not like modern locks that will have the change index at 11 o'clock.. this lock has to be dialed to about 1:30 o'clock (about 12 numbers Right from top dead center opening index) for the change key hole to align with the change key cams in each combination wheel. Surprisingly your dial ring does not have line engraved at the change index.

Here is an update. I think that the lock I have has a change index and an open index that are one and the same. I did try a couple iterations of dialing lock combinations to both the left and the right side of TDC, at the approximate positions of 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock. The final location of the square wheels did not agree with the keyhole position in the lock cover.

The only case where all three wheels and their the square holes were aligned with the cover plate keyhole was when the existing, working combination was dialed in, using the opening index as the starting point. At this final resulting position of the wheel stack, I could insert a 1/8" metal round stock thru the wheels and thru the cover keyhole. I could clearly see the square holes, looking thru the keyhole. I want to think the answer has been staring at me, all this while.

The safe was originally made available to me in a locked open position. Access to the lock internals made it straightforward to determine the combination. I never used or considered the significance of the square holes or the keyhole in the lock cover plate to help with any alignment of the wheels or the wheel gaps.

I did order a key. Of course, I think today is a federal holiday, so it will still be a couple of days longer before I can get the key and test my theory.

I don't see a website ability to include multiple quotes in one post, so I generated this same response to Squelchtone and MartinHewitt, in separate posts.

This would make your lock a "zero change" lock where the change index is at 0 on the dial. You have to be careful with those as the lever arm and fence will want to enter the wheel gates. I think Martin already mentioned that these kinds of locks usually have a metal piece that is attached to the back cover so that when the change key is inserted and turned, the metal piece pivots up and keeps the lever arm elevated above the wheel gates so you can then dial a new combination. I do not see such a piece on your lock so I have to think about the procedure you would use to change your combination.

Could you show us a photo of the inside of your locks cover? And is there another hole in the back of the cover above the change key hole or is the change key hole the only hole in the back of the cover other than the screw hole?

Thank you,
Squelchtone

Two photos. One photo shows the alignment of the lock mechanism when the dial has been rotated to the third and final number. At this point, you can see at the bottom, the square hole is between 6 o'clock and 7 o'clock. All of the gates are aligned at the top. They are offset by the same angle as the square hole(s) at the bottom. The fence is sitting or hovering above the gates. The only thing holding the lever arm (and the fence) from falling down is the drive cam. If the dial was now rotated clockwise, the drive cam would eventually rotate around by 180 degrees and then the fence would fall into the aligned gates. So the drive cam is holding the lever arm from falling. That's all.

There is also the photo of the back cover. FWIW, you can see the area for the keyhole. It is machined where one quarter of a turn has been removed, or milled away, to allow the flag on the change key to be able to rotate thru the 90 degrees where the metal was removed.

I am wondering if that once the third and final number has been dialed in, THEN the square holes would be aligned and allow for full insertion of the change key. The next step would be to proceed with dialing in the new combination, going in the L-R-L direction. IF I tried to dial in to the right, then the change can would rotate by about 180 degrees and allow the lever arm to fall into aligned gates. That would be bad.

Also, I looked ahead by one post. I see where MartinHewitt added a comment about the possible model number for this lock from a 1907 year catalog? More info to consider. I do find it interesting that we are discussing something that some engineer designed over 100 years ago. Might bring a smile to that person's face.

[laxman]

Large Kromers have a mechanism attached to the first wheel at the rear of the case which is difficult to see. Small Kromers have a mechanism attached to the cover, so do some Japanese locks. S&G has in their small 6770 a sheet attached to the lever. So there are a few locations where such a mechanism might be located, but it is rare.

Btw. your lock has in the catalog of 1907 the model number C 61.

MartinHewitt, yes, got it. imgbb finally came back, late this evening. I posted some photos and some thoughts of my own.

[MartinHewitt]

That is my cover with index on the right. I think yours is indeed a zero change lock. As there is nothing visible in your photos there must be a mechanism to the rear of the lock. Maybe attached to the rear of the last wheel or attached to the case.

[laxman]

Here is a photo of the SLC-7 key that was ordered for this S&G lock. I think I ordered it on Thursday, last week. It arrived in the mail today. Not sure about mentioning the outfit that provided the key, so I'll hold off. The key is really substantial, in hand, literally. It does insert fully into the lock. I just have to actually change the combination at this point, after I submit this post.

[MartinHewitt]

Don't forget to test the new combo at least three times before closing the door.

[laxman]

Don't forget to test the new combo at least three times before closing the door.

Well it works. The opening index and the changing index, for this lock, are the same. Yes, I have checked the new combo several times now. It did take a bit of effort to twist the key CCW to unlock the mechanism. It did open with a click.

Thanks MartinHewitt and Squelchtone for helping me through this.

[MartinHewitt]

Great, that you were successful!

[Squelchtone]

Congrats on getting it sorted and MartinHewitt did all the helping, I'm just here for the cool old safe lock!

Thanks,
Squelchtone