Beginner - Pinning, and tool questions

[Terbs]

Hi guys,

I followed the new users please start here thread but when trying to click the Site Use and Etiquette
WHERE SHOULD I POST FIRST? link it says im not authorised... so I hope this is ok to post.

I'm from Australia and quite new to Locks, Have always had an interest in them and repinned a few using pins from old locks. finally decided to get some propper tools and pins but a little lost.

I basically only plan on playing with lockwood keys which from what I can work out are C4 locks? using a LW4 key?

I bought a cheap lock pick set form amazon and can get one padlock very easily but I have 2 others that are pinned the same that I just cant get.
If I was to buy a lishi tool would the Lw4 or Lw5 with the 1 pin 3d printed spacer be the correct one? is this the better tool to use?

Onto the Pinning side.
from what I can tell the lockwood pins are the Schlage pins?
so if I was to get a key gauge I would need a schlage key gauge? Is there another way to get the key pin numbers?

I downloaded a Schlage pinning chart but to be honest I don't really fully understand it, Mainly the master pins do I have to calculate that ontop of the bottom pin if I was to make a master key? so if I made a #22334 and then to make it a master if I pinned the #4 with a #2 and a master pin #2 it would work as a #2 or #4 so the master key could be a #2 or #4 on another lock? so in basics the bottom pin and master pin have to total the number pin you are looking for?? ie looking for # 6 then you could use any combination of 2 and 4, 3 and 3 or 1 and 5?
any tips on how you do master keys?

Do you have to use different top pins based on the bottom pins? im guessing shorter top pin when the bottom pin is longer and vice versa?
The Chart also says invert .237 bottom pin use as top pin but there isnt a .237 bottom pin? is that pin#5 the .240?

Ive got a lot to learn and a lot to read but just trying to get pointed in the right direction to start with.

Cheers

[Squelchtone]

Hi guys,

I followed the new users please start here thread but when trying to click the Site Use and Etiquette
WHERE SHOULD I POST FIRST? link it says im not authorised...

Hello and welcome to the forum. It seems we have some updating to do and thank you for finding that broken link and calling it out so we have an opportunity to fix it.

That thread is from 2005 and some of the posts the thread links to have changed or moved around over the years.

We will begin a review process of existing threads to make the forum easier to navigate for our new as well as existing members.

Thank you and happy picking,
Squelchtone

[demux]

I'm not a Lockwood expert, but looking at what DSD data I can find on them it appears they actually have a couple of different pinning systems. It appears most of them are 0.015" increment, which corresponds to Schlage, but I found one that says they're off by an increment (e.g. a Schlage 1 pin has length 0.320" while a Lockwood 1 pin has length 0.305"), and one named "Lockwood Australia" where the lengths are all 0.002" longer. If you're interested in doing lock stuff, I highly suggest you buy yourself at least a decent digital caliper. It'll come in handy for all sorts of things, including the fact that you can use it to directly measure the pins and/or key cut depths of the locks you're trying to work on so you can sort out exactly what DSD they use.

I'd also suggest buying a pinning set in whatever manufacturer you intend to be working on, or a universal set if you'll be working on multiple manufacturers, if you don't have one already. The pinning kits will often have an insert taped to the back of the lid that gives you further information on the coded depths and corresponding pin sizes.

As far as top pins, most manufacturers will typically specify that you shorten the top pin as the overall height of the pin stack grows (e.g. due to very shallow key cuts, master keying, etc). This is generally good practice, however if you don't do it the lock will likely continue to work, you'll just be putting more pressure on the spring and cap, which could lead to failure. It's more critical on the other end of the spectrum, where if you use a very short top pin in combination with a very short pin stack, you can actually have the top pin drop completely into the plug and effectively nullify the security of that pin chamber.

As far as master keying, what you want to do is have the bottom pin in the stack correspond to the highest cut of any operating key for that cylinder, and then the master pin correspond to the difference between that cut and the lower cut. So using your example, if you had master key 22334 and change key 22336, chamber 5 would use a bottom pin of size 4 and a master pin of size 2. Note, not all combinations are valid, as you have to pay attention to the step increment and MACS, which should all be specified by the pinning system. In Schlage, for example, the increment is 2, which means in a master system every pin chamber remains either odd or even. So 22334 and 22336 is a valid combination of master and change keys, however 22334 and 22337 are not. A 2 step system is fairly common in a 0.015" increment. MACS is the maximum difference that is allowed between adjacent cuts. Using Schlage as an example again, their system MACS is 7, so a key with code 19342 is not valid as either a master or change key.

Hopefully that answers some of your questions.

[Terbs]

but I found one that says they're off by an increment (e.g. a Schlage 1 pin has length 0.320" while a Lockwood 1 pin has length 0.305"), and one named "Lockwood Australia" where the lengths are all 0.002" longer.

The Lockwood compatible pin set I purchased is the same as the Schlage but it has an extra pin starting at .150
I only plan to tinker with my own stuff and padlocks etc. maybe expand once I get the hang of it but too busy to be doing it even as a side hussle. 90% of the keys I use are a lw4 or compatible so use the same lockwood pins.

Hopefully that answers some of your questions.

Yes definitely getting a better understanding now thanks.
The macs I didn't understand until now and master key setup being odd or even too.

[demux]

and master key setup being odd or even too.

Just to clarify on that one, it's actually a function of the pinning specs for the system. There are systems that use a single step progression. Those are generally ones where the physical pin size increment is larger (SFIC A3 is an example).

The advantage of a two step system is you can write multiple master key systems in the same keyway, while minimizing key interchange, by keeping track of the even/odd parity of each pin chamber in each system. This is a common locksmith method to maintain key system security of each of their customers without having to stock a boatload of keyways. For example, customer A gets a system where the parity is EEEEOE, customer B gets EEEEEO, and so even if each one uses all the possible codes in the system there should never be any interchange with each other.

[Terbs]

Ah that makes sense

I have just been checking all my keys... one is a master a

Any reason why
change key is xx0x0
the master is xx5x5

[demux]

Any reason why
change key is xx0x0
the master is xx5x5

I assume you're asking this in the context of it being a two step progression system. It's possible you just mis-measured the key. If that's an old master that's been used heavily, those could actually be 4 cuts that have worn down over the years so they look like 5 cuts. If you're using a key gauge, it's also possible that it's worn or inaccurate and is giving a false reading (see again my previous advice about getting a decent caliper).

It's also entirely possible that the system was just set up out of spec for whatever reason, in which case you'd have to ask the original system designer why that is. Just because the system specs say one thing, there's nothing physically stopping someone from setting it up another way. Sometimes there's even good reason for it. If the guy who set it up was competent, and did something non-standard, he should have left good notes in the system documentation as to why. Of course, it's also possible he just didn't know what he was doing and wasn't aware of the proper spec...

(Note: assuming the value of x is the same in all cases, the possibility of the designer not knowing is more likely. In a well-designed master system, it's standard practice to have at least one of the master key cuts be higher than all the change keys under that master. This prevents a clever and motivated system user from filing down their change key into a master.)