Old Sargent & Greenleaf Floor safe only unlocks when tilted

[D-Rack]

I have an old Sargent and Greenleaf floor safe. When purchased it the lock was open. There were several combinations written on a piece of paper inside. I removed the door from the safe part. I removed the back cover of the lock and managed to figure out the correct combination. I have the lock/door separated from the safe part. If I set it flat on a table and dial combination in, it will not retract the locking mechanisms. If I tilt the lock up about 45 degrees and dial the same combination it unlocks every time. Any idea what can be causing this? There doesn't seem to be anything loose inside.

[MartinHewitt]

The lock has probably an internal "relocker", that prevents the bolt from retracking when burglars used force on the lock. For good operation the back cover must be screwed on tight. Please try this. And please don't close the door before you have tested the complete lock and bolt work operation at least three times.

[Squelchtone]

Some photos would help us see what you have in front of you. Also worth mentioning that Sargent & Greenleaf makes the combination locks, your safe door/body was probably made by someone else.

Please post a photo of the lock mechanism laying flat on the table, and another photo of the lock mechanism standing vertically as if the door was mounted on the safe.

Are you dialing the combination with the lock cover removed or with the lock cover on the back of the lock mechanism?

Thanks,
Squelchtone

[Raymond]

With the door held vertically, something on the safe might be putting pressure against the lock bolt. Sometimes when there is pressure on the bolt and back end of the lever, the combination is affected After removing the lock bolt or while moving the bolt back and fourth see if the small spring and ball bearing are still present under the bolt. They should be strong enough to hold the bolt both locked and open. Or, the lever pivot screw might be dirty and not freely moving. Or, the center post through the wheels might be dirty and need cleaning and lubing. Or, the flies are also similarly dirty. The flies must be replaced clean and with NO lubricant. Keep them dry. Clean out the groove the flies rotate in.

Most S&G's will last a very long time but do need routine cleaning and lubing.

Waiting on that picture.

[billdeserthills]

..

[D-Rack]

https://ibb.co/z8p2RH1
https://ibb.co/g38Hb38
https://ibb.co/gjVrHhR
https://ibb.co/6JDbRsk

I do have the two other bolt type things and a bar going across the back of the circular plate off . But they appear to only be some type of safety feature. They don't even touch the locking mechanism.

[D-Rack]

Some photos would help us see what you have in front of you. Also worth mentioning that Sargent & Greenleaf makes the combination locks, your safe door/body was probably made by someone else.

Please post a photo of the lock mechanism laying flat on the table, and another photo of the lock mechanism standing vertically as if the door was mounted on the safe.

Are you dialing the combination with the lock cover removed or with the lock cover on the back of the lock mechanism?

Thanks,
Squelchtone

Were you able to see the photos?

[Squelchtone]

Some photos would help us see what you have in front of you. Also worth mentioning that Sargent & Greenleaf makes the combination locks, your safe door/body was probably made by someone else.

Please post a photo of the lock mechanism laying flat on the table, and another photo of the lock mechanism standing vertically as if the door was mounted on the safe.

Are you dialing the combination with the lock cover removed or with the lock cover on the back of the lock mechanism?

Thanks,
Squelchtone

Were you able to see the photos?

Not yet, I have been at work.

[Squelchtone]

Was there a round plate covering the lock mechanism? What happens when you attach the round to the back of the door, does the lock retract then?

This is either going to be a relocker issue that is built into that door external to the lock or something inside the square lock case.

The lock looks like a S&G 6709, could you remove the cover so we can see what the lever arm (looks like a bird beak pecking at the combination wheels) looks like and if the spring on it has separated from the lever? That might explain why the lock only retracts if lifted 45 degrees off the table because gravity is helping things fall into place, while when it is laying flat on the table the lever has no gravity helping it fall into the wheel gates.

Either way, could you remove that lock cover and take a few photos of the inside of the lock?

Thank you,
Squelchtone

[D-Rack]

Was there a round plate covering the lock mechanism? What happens when you attach the round to the back of the door, does the lock retract then?

This is either going to be a relocker issue that is built into that door external to the lock or something inside the square lock case.

The lock looks like a S&G 6709, could you remove the cover so we can see what the lever arm (looks like a bird beak pecking at the combination wheels) looks like and if the spring on it has separated from the lever? That might explain why the lock only retracts if lifted 45 degrees off the table because gravity is helping things fall into place, while when it is laying flat on the table the lever has no gravity helping it fall into the wheel gates.

Either way, could you remove that lock cover and take a few photos of the inside of the lock?

Thank you,
Squelchtone

Yes it has a round plate that covers the back. It is in one of these pictures I'm sending now along with the parts that go on top of the back lock cover. it is the two chrome cylinders that are on opposite sides connected by that flat bar. They don't appear to be touching anything inside the back cover. It looks to me to be some type of safety mechanism that if that bar is tampered with the two chrome cylinders spring out to supply additional locking support. Even with these installed and back round plate secured it does the same thing. The spring attached to the lever arm appears to be in tact and working. The arm has plenty of resistance and "spring". I worked with it off and on for months trying to figure it out. Thanks for any assistance you can offer.
https://ibb.co/G5dRcgN
https://ibb.co/qg8gf4s
https://ibb.co/cbFTQx9
https://ibb.co/c2bFh29

[D-Rack]

Was there a round plate covering the lock mechanism? What happens when you attach the round to the back of the door, does the lock retract then?

This is either going to be a relocker issue that is built into that door external to the lock or something inside the square lock case.

The lock looks like a S&G 6709, could you remove the cover so we can see what the lever arm (looks like a bird beak pecking at the combination wheels) looks like and if the spring on it has separated from the lever? That might explain why the lock only retracts if lifted 45 degrees off the table because gravity is helping things fall into place, while when it is laying flat on the table the lever has no gravity helping it fall into the wheel gates.

Either way, could you remove that lock cover and take a few photos of the inside of the lock?

Thank you,
Squelchtone

Yes it has a round plate that covers the back. It is in one of these pictures I'm sending now along with the parts that go on top of the back lock cover. it is the two chrome cylinders that are on opposite sides connected by that flat bar. They don't appear to be touching anything inside the back cover. It looks to me to be some type of safety mechanism that if that bar is tampered with the two chrome cylinders spring out to supply additional locking support. Even with these installed and back round plate secured it does the same thing. The spring attached to the lever arm appears to be in tact and working. The arm has plenty of resistance and "spring". I worked with it off and on for months trying to figure it out. Thanks for any assistance you can offer.
https://ibb.co/G5dRcgN
https://ibb.co/qg8gf4s
https://ibb.co/cbFTQx9
https://ibb.co/c2bFh29

Here are photos with bar and cylinder assembly back on and photo of cover plate.
https://ibb.co/wCZ0tzW
https://ibb.co/5GTNPkL

[Squelchtone]

Thank you for the additonal photos, I was wondering what the holes were for and it's for the relocker bolts in case someone punched out the lock mechanism.

Does the safe retract the bolt any easier with the back cover and wheel paclk removed? How loose os the dial? Can you pull and push the dial in and out so that the lever does not index/mate with the drive cam?

And if you turn the dial while the rear cover and the wheelpack attached to the cover is removed, eventually as you turn the dial the lever nose drops into the gate in the drive, correct?

Thank you,

Squelchtone

[GWiens2001]

I have a question...

If you turn the dial so the drive cam gate is directly below the lever nose, does the lever drop into the gate while the lock is flat? What I am checking for is if the spring that can be seen on the lever and around the lever bolt is intact. I have opened one of those before where the lever spring looked good, but was in fact broken and not applying tension pushing the lever into the drive cam.

In one of the second set of pictures where the bolt is at the bottom of the picture - the spring part of the picture is slightly out of focus, but it does not appear that the spring is pushing snugly against the lever. That might explain the lock operating if the lock/door is at enough of the correct angle to allow gravity to pull the lever down into the drive cam gate, and not when the door/lock is flat.

Just my two cents. I could be wrong - certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Gordon

[D-Rack]

Thank you for the additonal photos, I was wondering what the holes were for and it's for the relocker bolts in case someone punched out the lock mechanism.

Does the safe retract the bolt any easier with the back cover and wheel paclk removed? How loose os the dial? Can you pull and push the dial in and out so that the lever does not index/mate with the drive cam?

And if you turn the dial while the rear cover and the wheelpack attached to the cover is removed, eventually as you turn the dial the lever nose drops into the gate in the drive, correct?

Thank you,

Squelchtone

Well, I tried the combination again after I fully reassembled and it worked the first time but not since. The dial was easy to turn except between the numbers 80-100 and it was harder to turn. But this was the same without the back hardware installed. When the dial is not between 80 and 100 it has just a litle up and down movement. But when between 80-100 it is very tight. Also. with the back plate removed I had to "figure out" the combination. Here is what I came up with:
Turn left at least 4 times
Stopping on 99
Right 2 times past 53
Stopping on 3rd time
Left 1 time past 11
Stopping on second time
Right SLOWLY open

Almost every other combination lock I've seen starts off turning right. I think I figured out a combination turning to right but I would have to go back and look at my notes. This one seemed more consistent... at the time.

[D-Rack]

I have a question...

If you turn the dial so the drive cam gate is directly below the lever nose, does the lever drop into the gate while the lock is flat? What I am checking for is if the spring that can be seen on the lever and around the lever bolt is intact. I have opened one of those before where the lever spring looked good, but was in fact broken and not applying tension pushing the lever into the drive cam.

In one of the second set of pictures where the bolt is at the bottom of the picture - the spring part of the picture is slightly out of focus, but it does not appear that the spring is pushing snugly against the lever. That might explain the lock operating if the lock/door is at enough of the correct angle to allow gravity to pull the lever down into the drive cam gate, and not when the door/lock is flat.

Just my two cents. I could be wrong - certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Gordon

The lever drop arm seems to have plenty of tension on it. It is not loose . see my response above.