Multiple Groups Need Access to Various Rooms - Possible?

[Layman]

I am helping to create a chart for our church to rekey into a master keying system with each group carrying a different control key. They have multiple groups that need access into different rooms but not all the same access. Here is the list of groups and rooms they need access to. My basic question is can some rooms be keyed to work from several different control keys? Thank you very much for the help!


Community Group:
2 Community Offices (Handles Only)
Nursery (Handle & Deadbolt)
Preschool Room (Handle Only)
Prayer Room (Handle Only)
1 of the Children's Classroom (Handle Only)
Fireplace Room (3 Handles Only)
Janitor's Closet (Handle Only)

Children:
2 Children's Rooms (Handles Only)
Children's Closet (Handle & Deadbolt)
Nursery (Handle & Deadbolt)
Preschool Room (Handle Only)
Office (Handle Only)
Boiler Room (Handle Only)
Janitors Closet

Teens:
Balcony Youth Room (2 Handles and Deadbolts)
Office (Handle Only)
Janitor's Closet (Handle Only)

Worship:
Sanctuary (2 Sided Keyed Deadbolts)
Office (Handle Only)
Balcony/AV area (Handle & Deadbolt)

Moms:
Mom's Room (2 Handles Only)
2 Children's Rooms (Handles Only)
Children's Closet (Handle & Deadbolt)
Nursery (Handle & Deadbolt)
Preschool Room (Handle Only)
Office (Handle Only)
Boiler Room (Handle Only)

Cafe:
Cafe (Handle & Deadbolt)
Supply Closet (Handle Only)
Janitor's Closet (Handle Only)

[Squelchtone]

I split up that big wall of text so it is easier to read.

I would like to start by going over some terminology please. I don't think you want them having control keys. In the locksmith world the words control keys is reserved for a special kind of key that is used to remove cores from door locks in order to swap them out or to service them. As for Handle Only, we can those types of locks either knob sets or lever sets, but not handles.

I'm gonna guess you need the locks all keyed up for a Grand Master key so someone important can have one key to open any door they need to open, and then each group of doors will work on several other sub master keys, and assuming you also want single change keys that only operate the door deadbolt or lever set they are inserted into. Someone else here who knows about heavily mastered locks will have to chime in as it is easy to create problems if this is not designed correctly

Just out of curiosity, what keyway/brand are the doors are keyed up to right now? Kwikset? Schlage? Corbin Russwin? BEST? Falcon? Arrow?

Thanks,
Squelchtone

[GWiens2001]

No question about it. You NEED to hire a skilled locksmith experienced with multi-level master keying. There are locksmiths who specialize in master keying.

There are some serious problems that can occur from an improperly created master key system. Some affect the operation of the lock itself, some affect the security of the building. Hire a professional. I know that churches are notorious for not wanting to pay a locksmith, but this is something where the risks outweigh the benefits of not spending the money.

There are locksmiths companies with names like MasterKey Solutions. You want a COMMERCIAL locksmith or an institutional locksmith. They have more experience in master keying.

Gordon

[Layman]

Thank you very much for the reply! I appreciate the information!!! The locks are all kwikset homeowner grade.

[Raymond]

Pardon me for chiming in on this subject but all previous posters are right about getting a professional to plan this job. The bigger and more complicated a master key system is, the more problems there will be. Churches are notorious for handing out keys to everyone and not keeping records. Temporary room assignments will change and possibly move from one sub-master to another. You must plan on having the ability to rekey each, multiple times, and keep the master/sub-master structure in place. Expect them to lose the grand-master at least once and want a new one without rekeying everything. Think about combination key boxes at each door to provide access instead of cutting lots of keys. If they can afford it suggest combination locks where the bypass will be the master and everyone can just use a combo.

Remember: KISS

Good luck!

[demux]

The locks are all kwikset homeowner grade.

So, I was going to actually try to decipher all the different groups and room needs and possibly present a conceptual plan, but I read this and stopped in my tracks. You should too. You are starting out with the wrong tools for this job, and on top of such a poor foundation, even a well-planned system is probably doomed to failure.

Any consumer grade lock is probably going to have only 5 pins. For a large complex multi-level master system like you're talking about, you're going to need 6 or even 7 to have enough room in the key bitting array.

Even if the above weren't true, Kwikset and Kwikset knockoff locks are so poorly made that on any significant master system you will have unintended key interchange as the locks wear (or maybe even before they do).

If you're serious about doing what you're talking about, you should really plan on replacing all the locks in your church with quality commercial grade stuff. If you're going down that road already, that opens up some interesting possibilities around access control, combination (as has already been mentioned in this thread), or other technologies that are more well suited to such a system.

If the above is something you can seriously consider, let us know and I'm sure some of the folks here will try to give you good suggestions.

[Layman]

I spoke to the church leadership and they like the combination lock option that was suggested here, thank you very much for the suggestions as this has really simplified the project. Now on to what combo lock to select, price is a major factor but reliability is important also. Does anyone have any suggestions on combo locks for interior doors? Thank you in advance!

[demux]

Knowing a rough ballpark of what you consider a reasonable cost would help, as well as your desired mode of operation. Do you want for example each door to have a specific set code that is passed around to people who need it, or do you want each user to have a code that is programmed in to whatever doors they have access to? For the former, you could do something as simple as a Kidde key box mounted on the wall next to each door that has a key for that door. Probably looking at under $30 or $40 per door for that option, though the downside is that it will take about a month for every person in the church to know the code to every door. On the code-per-person side, you're talking about an electronic solution at that point, which is much more secure but you probably won't find anything decent for less than around $150 per door. This model from Schlage should work pretty well for you in that range:

https://www.gokeyless.com/products/schl ... lot-accent

If you want to add time based access, auditing, etc, it just goes up from there. You can easily spend several hundred dollars per door for a full featured commercial grade electronic lock.

[RedStagKiller]

Knowing a rough ballpark of what you consider a reasonable cost would help, as well as your desired mode of operation. Do you want for example each door to have a specific set code that is passed around to people who need it, or do you want each user to have a code that is programmed in to whatever doors they have access to? For the former, you could do something as simple as a Kidde key box mounted on the wall next to each door that has a key for that door. Probably looking at under $30 or $40 per door for that option, though the downside is that it will take about a month for every person in the church to know the code to every door. On the code-per-person side, you're talking about an electronic solution at that point, which is much more secure but you probably won't find anything decent for less than around $150 per door. This model from Schlage should work pretty well for you in that range:

https://www.gokeyless.com/products/schl ... lot-accent

If you want to add time based access, auditing, etc, it just goes up from there. You can easily spend several hundred dollars per door for a full featured commercial grade electronic lock.

Just make sure you check out Amazon or your local locksmith or big box store to get a better price.

https://www.amazon.com/Schlage-FE595-PL ... 48&sr=8-11

[Layman]

I think the Schlage lock will work perfectly! Thank you!

[Evan]

I think the Schlage lock will work perfectly! Thank you!

Having seen single device pin code electronic locks like these used before, I do not believe that this is the solution for you.

You need a lockset which you can easily program without having to use the PIN pad to do so.

I would recommend something along the lines of a Best V Series offline lock.

This would allow you to maintain some form of accountability for access to individual users.

I would issue Prox fobs to everyone who needs access and then assign them an access level as appropriate to which group of doors they need access to.

You were looking at setting up a system which would only have six PIN codes in use with the Schlage standalone locks, everyone will soon know five of the six PIN codes. Changing the codes in those standalone locks is a pain, and then you would have to tell everyone what the new changed PIN number is. That is not security. You would do better to have keyed alike locks and just give every member a key and perhaps change them every year than to deal with several dozens of these individual electronic PIN access locks that are not part of a central access database program. While the Schlage devices will be cheaper to purchase, they will have hidden costs in your time and when codes get compromised down the road. It will be better in the long run for the facility to install a proper system of locks that creates accountability for the users by allowing audits of who opened what doors and when, especially if things start to walk away at some point. Being able to deactivate a lost Prox fob and know that the old one can no longer be used is a useful capability to ensure security. So is the ability to create access levels based on day and time (i.e. teens do not need access outside of certain times and days when the teen program will meet) which is very difficult if not impossible to do on the cheaper electronic PIN code locks.

You want to buy into the solution to this issue whioch will last the test of time, not spend all kinds of money on electronic locks which will cause a problem later on once PIN codes become shared knowledge.

~~ Evan

[demux]

A valid concern, but those Schlage locks support something like 20 or 30 combinations each (depending on model). That may or may not be enough for the OP. The original suggestion was to have a code per person and program it into the appropriate locks. Yes, it's a pain, but it sounded like a more enterprise-level access control solution might be beyond his budget...