Safe Deposit Lock Interchange/Footprint

[sign216]

Is there a reference on the interchange of safe deposit locks? I.e. which models share the same footprint?

I have the door to a vintage safe, that uses a S&G model 4340 lock, with no keys. Double big nose, 1/2" nose height. I'd like to replace the lock with a modern equivalent that will fit. Any resources on which lock models can swap bodies?

[MartinHewitt]

Hi, you could contact West Coast Hardware if they have a compatible lock. https://www.wchardware.com/locks.html There is no 4340 listed at mbausa from them. They show a S&G 4340 on their web site, but I am not really sure from this web site, what they have on offer.
Another option is https://www.bullseyesdlocks.com/ which has a better list of their products which does not list a 4340, but maybe they will soon have one or there is a compatible one.

[sign216]

MartinH,

I saw that photo on West Coast Hardware. It's a little odd, because it's just a photo of an S&G 4340 lock, without it being tied to any of their products. I will call them Mon, but the 4340 is obscure enough that my expectations are low.

I think the 4340 and the more popular 4440 are both designed from the same S&G patent from the 1920's. I was hoping someone would confirm that they both have the same "footprint" because the 4440 is easy to find. I may end up buying a used 4440 just to try.

Ebay has one set of 4340 locks, but missing the guard keys. Locks are cheap enough that I'd rather get a working set.

Joe

[MartinHewitt]

I found a technical drawing which is supposed to be the 4440 RH.
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-czp7p/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/1113/6011/img004__42255.1471353188.jpg?c=2
from https://safeandlockstore.com/safe-parts-accessories/sargent-greenleaf-4440-rh-safe-deposit-lock/

[sign216]

MartinH,

An outstanding job. Your search skills are commendable. I can use that to see if the 4340 footprint is the same as the ubiquitous 4440, and then get a good lock. Thank you mightily.

I see that S&G stopped making safe deposit locks. I'm guessing they couldn't compete price-wise with other companies, and decided to focus on safe locks and high security locks, where their name carries more weight. Just an amateur guess.

MartinH, thanks again. I don't know why the footprint info isn't commonly published. Perhaps companies don't want you to "go off-label." They want you to keep buying the brand you already have.

Joe

[MartinHewitt]

From the photo I think it won't fit. And it also is a mystery to my why none of the manufacturers, neither the original, nor the copying, offer any measurements.

[sign216]

MartinH,
You are right; nearly every measurement is different. Every one, except perhaps the nose diameter and height (thank G_d for small favors).

There's a 4340 for sale on Evilbay, that comes with client keys but no guard key. What do you think of using that, and deactivating the guard key portion, so that the lock become a one-key lock? Is that possible?

[MartinHewitt]

With the 4440 it is possible. The lock's guts are shown here: https://youtu.be/ma779iS8bnk?t=1095 You could also make a guard key yourself.

[sign216]

Thanks for that video, interesting. The 4340 is slightly different, instead of using springs cut integral to the brass wards (4440), on the 4340 they embedded wire springs into the brass wards. Perhaps in the 1920's they found the 4440 way cheaper, and that became the standard. Now, they might go a different route.

I have little experience cutting a flat steel key. I'd rather buy the used 4340 with a good client key, and then either deactivate the guard side, or cut a guard key then, with the working client as a model.

Any issues I should be aware of in this scenario?

[MartinHewitt]

On the 4440 you just have to remove the levers on the right side and it operates normally by a single key used on the left nose. If there is the same functionality inside the 4340, then you can do the same.

On your photo it looks like the guard key (right side) is not just flat. So it might be a bit difficult to get the proper blank.

[sign216]

On your photo it looks like the guard key (right side) is not just flat. So it might be a bit difficult to get the proper blank.

You've got sharp eyes. You right, it doesn't take flat keys (see photos). I looked at the few 4340 pictures online, and they are different than this one, they take flat keys. The other 4340s also have an appearance similar to modern safe deposit locks. Perhaps this is an early one, before S&G standardized the design.

Thanks for the advice on disabling the guard side. I'll scour the 'net and get another 4340, and use that.

[sign216]

I called West Coast Hardware and ordered a 4340 w client and guard keys. They sounded like a small two-person operation, but the man answering the phone immediately recognized the 4340 as a larger lock, and out of production. To make sure we were talking about the same thing, he was able to send me specs on the 4340 (below). They had some old stock on hand, so I am all set. MartinH, thank you for guiding me on figuring this out.

The guy said the 4340 went out of production just 4 yrs ago. Maybe I mis-heard him, as online it appears that the 4340 hasn't been around for 20+ yrs, but who knows.

Joe


image uploading site

[MartinHewitt]

Great, that you found now the perfect solution to your problem!