Safe Manipulation Progression System

[FranklyFlawless]

Hello everyone,

I have been attempting to formulate some sort of safe manipulation progression system in a similar manner to Lock Picking United's belt ranking system, but I am unsure about what combination locks to acquire for this arduous journey, so I am requesting advice and suggestions from the Lock Picking 101 community. Currently I have two safe combination locks in mind, with the former already acquired:

• Sargent and Greenleaf 6730
• Chubb Manifoil Mark IV (or VIII)

My criteria is as follows:

• Mechanical or electromechanical
• Represents a distinct tier of difficulty above, below, or between other combination locks, while also being the most popular/well-known within its tier

I am aware of Underwriters Laboratories' UL 768 standard and the four groups for safe combination lock ratings:

• Group 2
• Group 2M
• Group 1
• Group 1R

I am also aware of the Department of Defense and four of their Federal Specifications regarding combination locks:

• FF-L-2740B
• FF-L-2890C
• FF-L-2937
• FF-P-110J

I have no budget requirements, but I want to avoid redundancy whenever possible: I do not want to collect more locks than necessary for progression. I have avoided combination padlocks due to this, but if they can be utilized for progression within the system then I will include them; my current understanding is that their combinations generally cannot be changed once known, so their usability in locksport is limited.

At the bare minimum, I know I want at least four combination locks for the four UL 768 group ratings, but other than the Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 representing Group 2, I do not know what the other combination locks for the remaining group ratings should be. Safe manipulation is not frequently discussed in r/lockpicking or r/safecracking, so I lack the information to make more informed purchasing decisions, and my local locksmith (Abby Locksmith) only sells safes from Brawn Security Products with the Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 as their mechanical safe combination lock, so I have already expended that option.

I am hoping those who already have familiarity and experience with safe combination locks in other group ratings will have well defined suggestions, so I would greatly appreciate your recommendations regarding this matter. I have not been able to clearly define the tier of the Chubb Manifoil Mark IV/VIII, but my best guess suggests it should be somewhere within/around Group 1R: it incorporates zinc and lead for addressing radiological attacks against it, but I do not have a reference point with other Group 1R safe combination locks to properly compare it to.

[MartinHewitt]

Hi, LPU started developing a belt list for combination locks:
https://www.reddit.com/r/lockpicking/wi ... urce=share
They would be happy if someone helps with this.

The list does not specify the UL rating. You can find this on the manufacturer web sites and you can search on the UL website after you have registered, although the search is not straight forward.

[FranklyFlawless]

Hi, LPU started developing a belt list for combination locks:
...
They would be happy if someone helps with this.

I already have a local copy of the Combo Lock Ranking and have been cleaning it up on my own, but I have no direct way to contact Lock Pickers United about it due to my security practices: I access Reddit through public Libreddit instances for web browsing sanitization purposes; and I cannot use Discord because I have a strict gratis and libre open-source software workflow. If Lock Pickers United utilize a public email address, that would be ideal for me as a method for accessibility and communication.

The list does not specify the UL rating. You can find this on the manufacturer web sites and you can search on the UL website after you have registered, although the search is not straight forward.

I have already been using the former for updating my local copy of the Combo Lock Ranking, but I was not aware of UL Product iQ, so I appreciate you letting me know about the service. I cannot legitimately register a Product iQ account, but it is not necessary: an abridged version of the service is provided for non-commercial users.

https://productiq.ulprospector.com/en/search

Each group rating has a product code (UL CCN) which identifies the category description:

• Combination Locks, Group 2 (OYYX)
• Combination Locks, Group 2 Certified for Canada (OYYX7)
• Combination Locks, Group 2M (OYZV)
• Combination Locks, Group 2M - Component (OYZV2)
• Combination Locks, Group 1 (OXXR)
• Combination Locks, Group 1 Certified for Canada (OXXR7)
• Combination Locks, Group 1R (OYKZ)
• Combination Locks, Group 1R Certified for Canada (OYKZ7)

That is plenty enough for my needs: I should be able to make my own informed decisions from here, but it will take a few days to sort through all of the products from each manufacturer and category.

[FranklyFlawless]

After multiple days, I did some serious work on my local copy of the Combo Lock Ranking, while also gaining further insight as to which safe combination locks to use for progression. Based on UL Product iQ, there are currently eight manufacturers that produce safe combination locks with a UL group rating:

1. dormakaba (La Gard - Group 2, 2M, and 1)
2. Fuzhou Changjia Security & Technology Co Ltd (Dimeixi - Group 2)
3. Lock Technology (M-Locks and NL Locks&Electronics - Group 2M)
4. Michael J Walsh & Associates DBA China Trade Source (Big Red Safe Locks - Group 2 and 2M)
5. Pingan Industrial Co Ltd (Group 2)
6. Sargent & Greenleaf (Group 2, 2M, 2M - Recognized Component, 1, and 1R)
7. Shenzhen City Zhishengyu Fine Metal Plastic Co Ltd (Group 2 and 2M)
8. TMI Corp (Group 2M and 2M - Recognized Component)

There are two new issues that I did not account for that are now a part of my criteria:

• Accessibility - in my particular case, common enough to be acquirable from eBay using guest checkout
• Kit - for a convenient, deployable, turnkey solution

This new criteria eliminates Dimeixi, M-Locks, Pingan, TMI Corp, and Zhishengyu as potential candidates, which leaves these brands left:

• Big Red Safe Locks
• NL Locks&Electronics
• La Gard
• Sargent & Greenleaf

Note that lock kits vary in availability: Sargent & Greenleaf is the most common; followed by La Gard; Big Red Safe Locks; and NL Locks&Electronics.

Sargent & Greenleaf stands out in particular as the only manufacturer to:

• Have safe combination locks in all UL group ratings
• Have safe combination locks in Group 1R
• Have (safe) combination locks meeting four Federal Specifications
• Be certified for Canada

Therefore, it is rational to focus on them for simplifying combination lock acquisition purposes. Currently, this is my safe manipulation progression system so far:

• Sargent & Greenleaf 6730 - UL Group 2
• Sargent & Greenleaf 6630 (lock body only, needs ring and dial) - UL Group 2M
• Sargent & Greenleaf 8430 or 8560 (not sure which one yet) - UL Group 1R
• Chubb Manifoil Mark IV/VIII

I do not think I will be acquiring a UL Group 1 safe combination lock: UL Group 1R features the same manipulation resistance for locksport purposes.

As for my local copy of the Combo Lock Ranking, it is at least 25% complete: the first of four lists is fully organized; the fourth list has all of the remaining safe combination locks with UL group ratings plus a Canadian combination padlock (dudley DYRP7SP "STANDARD"); and all lists in between have been mostly cleaned up, while also including UL group ratings and Federal Specifications when necessary. There is a lot of missing information and unfamiliar locks, so it will take some time to fill out each entry.

[MartinHewitt]

NL Locks and M-Locks combination locks are the same. Avoid the locks with square spindles.

If your aim is collecting, then it makes to buy a basically random one from each UL Group. If you want to manipulate, then I recommend more research in how they work, because there can be pretty big jumps in difficulty between locks in one group. Especially with Group 1(R) locks you should look into the matter of how you want to manipulate them. And in your list is the Manifoil Mark VIII. You will probably not find one.

[MartinHewitt]

In the UL Group system the UL does not test a lock and comes to the conclusion that it is a 2, 2M or 1. Instead the lock manufacturer specifies the level and UL says yes or no. This level can be selected purely for marketing reasons. The 6651 is a UL Group 2M lock. The 6643 has everything the same as the 6651, but it has 4 instead of 3 wheels. Manipulate 4 instead 3 wheels takes more time, but S&G has it tested only as a UL Group 2 lock. In the European system the 6643 jumps from the lowest level to the highest possible rating (grade C) while the 6651 falls from the medium level to the lowest rating (grade A). Security standards are tricky.

[FranklyFlawless]

Lock Picking United has recently updated their Belt Explorer to include safe combination locks:

LPU Belt Explorer - Safe Locks

Their ranking system is defined into five tiers:

LPU Belt Explorer - Master's Projects

Safe Lock Manipulation

• Tier 1 - Unrated safe or complex combination lock - e.g. from the "decodable by sight" column.
• Tier 2 - Group 2 safe of easier type e.g. S&G 6700, Big Red CDL3. Dials with false gates, such as a 6642, also count as tier 2.
  
  • Example of a tier 2 safecracking project: Group 2 Safe Manipulation.
  • Cutaways will not be accepted.
• Tier 3 - Group 2/2M safe of harder type e.g. 4 wheels: LaGard 1800, Chubb 7L64 or false gates and nose roller like the S&G 6630.
• Tier 4 - Group 1 with established method - requires more than just a graphing attack.
• Tier 5 - Opening any previously unopened combination lock with a new method.

Safe dials should have the code set by another source (does not have to be an LPU member) and the cracker should be able to describe their process and show work for how the code was determined.

When compared to my safe manipulation progression system, here is where each overlap:

• Tier 1 - N/A
• Tier 2 - Sargent & Greenleaf 6730
• Tier 3 - Sargent & Greenleaf 6630
• Tier 4 - N/A
• Tier 5 - N/A

Currently the Sargent & Greenleaf 8430/8560 and Chubb Manifoil Mark IV/VIII are unranked.

[FranklyFlawless]

The LPU Belt Explorer has updated the rank of the Chubb Manifoil Mark IV to Quest Tier 4, and I have independently filled out the remaining tiers to finally complete my safe manipulation progression system:

• Quest Tier 1 - Master Lock 1500(K)D
• Quest Tier 2 - Sargent & Greenleaf 6730
• Quest Tier 3 - Sargent & Greenleaf 6630
• Quest Tier 4 - Chubb Manifoil Mark IV
• Quest Tier 5 - Sargent & Greenleaf 8560

As quoted earlier, Quest Tier 1 is determined by the Lockpicking subreddit's Combo Lock Ranking "decodable by sight, shimming or tensioning" column:

• combination_lock_rankings - lockpicking (on my Redlib instance)

I chose the Master Lock 1500(K)D due to its wide availability, popularity, and its relevant front-facing rotary dial mechanism. As for Quest Tier 5, I ultimately chose the Sargent & Greenleaf 8560 due to its product availability at MBA USA, whereas the Sargent & Greenleaf 8430 is not listed as a product there. Even though the Sargent & Greenleaf 8560 is currently unranked on the LPU Belt Explorer, it made a lot of sense to place it in Quest Tier 5 within my progression system simply because it was the last remaining incomplete tier.

Special thanks to MartinHewitt for their contributions to both this thread and LPU Belt Explorer.

[MartinHewitt]

The 8400 series is not listed on the S&G page. So it seems they finally have it discontinued.

[billdeserthills]

The 8400 series is not listed on the S&G page. So it seems they finally have it discontinued.

Still new parts available: 3 Wheel Pack, Drive cam assy, Inner spindle

https://www.lockmasters.com/sg-8400-loc ... sg90577514
https://www.lockmasters.com/sg-8400-mec ... -sg8400cam
https://www.lockmasters.com/sg-8400-mec ... e-sg8400is

[FranklyFlawless]

Sargent & Greenleaf placed the 8430 and its variants within the 8500 series page's part numbers:

• 8500 Series Group 1 Combination Lock | Sargent and Greenleaf