Pin Sizes.

[Pickermeapie]

Hey I hope someone can help me with this. I needed the pin sizes for Corbin-Russwin Locks and their appropiate code corrosponding to each size. I have taken apart a lock and am trying to fit a key to it with out changing the pins. So I suppose (correct me if im wrong) I simly measure the pins from top to tip and look at the little chart I hope to find and get a code. It is master keyed so I suppose that if i want a master key, I measure the bottom pins with the master pin in there as well, correct? Any help is greatly appreciated.

-Pickermeapie

[Pickermeapie]

Ok. Well, I found this. http://www.dlaco.com/spacing/spacing.htm However, this lock has been previously rekeyed. It appears it was a Russwin lock before the Corbin-Russwin Merger. So does this mean that this code-size chart may be useless if he didn't use manufacture sized pins? I'm not sure how to go about making a master key. I dont have a code machine nor a micrometer machine. I of course can take a code to the locksmith down the street, but if i don't have a code what can I give him? I can't take the cylinder to him either. ACK!

[Mr Ules]

see what happens when you use the search engine.

[Pickermeapie]

Yea I tried that already, and obiously did not yeild good results. Thats why I'm asking this quuestion on this fourm. I always search first, specificly to prevent that response. Thanks for your useless help.

[Mr Ules]

No need to be rude. Have you any idea how many newbees make posts without searching. Had you searched you would have come across a topic called " decoding schlage keys with calipers ". A person provides that exact link. Don't you think it's quite coincidental that you provide the same link as what is on another topic.

[stick]

It appears it was a Russwin lock before the Corbin-Russwin Merger. So does this mean that this code-size chart may be useless if he didn't use manufacture sized pins?

Read his entire post, he was asking if the chart might be out of date.

However, on the site itself, it lists Corbin and Russwin seperately, so I'd assume that the sizes given under the Russwin section would work for your lock.

[Pickermeapie]

Yes, I do find it quite coincidental as I found it using Google. I apologize if I sounded rude, but your comment to me was in my mind rude. As for that post in the search, I am looking for Corbin/Russwin, Not Schlage. That title probably would not have tempted me to open it as its obvious subject matter was not pertaining to what I was looking for.

[Pickermeapie]

I was thinking that too stick, but I found color coded pins in the lock, so that means that it was rekeyed not to long ago. I'm just wondering if the locksmith that did the rekeying didn't use pins to those Russwin sizes, but rather mabey a universal? I'm not sure, my Mircometer is out so I guess i'll just have to wait and see if the pins match up to the russwin specs given. - Thanks for you help

[locksmistress]

I think I can shed some light here...

But first, masterkeyed: a masterkeyed cylinder has master pins in it but the "Master Key" is not necessarily the bottom pin plus the top pin.

You can extrapolate multiple operating keys for the cylinder, but with only one cylinder and no keys you cannot generate the master with certainty (which is not to say that you couldn't get lucky).

Next, System 70, Z series, X series, etc.... I don't know how many people actually pay attention to this anymore. A good portion of the older Corbin Russwin cylinders that I have had in have not been according to code.

The locksmith whose shop I now inhabit - with several changeovers in between - used to master key every brand of cylinder (Yale, Corbin, Schlage, Arrow, Russwin, whatever) with a 0.005" step Zip kit and a file. I still have the kit and the file.... sigh.

Venerable old school. So our systems up until about 40 years ago aren't really systematic, you know?

They worked, to be sure. But I don't know that Harry ever used a code card or manufacturers orignal anything if he wasn't doing Best.

Corbin Russwin original pins are not generally color coded: they are nickel silver and come only in gold and silver colors. If your cylinder has other color coded pins it was probably pinned from a LAB or a Zip kit. That means that the odds are slimmer that someone went through the trouble to do it altogether correctly.

It also means about 100% that the pin sizes are off from mfrs specs.

If you actually want the factory original key cut specifications you will need to know the keyway as well as the era as well as the country of origin. Canadian Corbin Russwin is different from United States Corbin Russwin (depending on the age). For real.

Summary: Your cylinder is most likely not keyed with the proper pins nor to mfr depth specifications. If you are trying to figure out a system, good luck. If you're trying to make a key eyeball it and just cut carefully with a file (with the pins in the plug and the plug out of the housing so you can see how close you're getting).

That's what I do in many situations and I have the original kits codes cards and caboodle at my disposal - as well as 60 years of key records to learn from. Worn pins among other system divergences make comprehensive maintenance of old systems to original specifications difficult if not impossible.

[Pickermeapie]

Thanks for your help, it was what I needed to hear. As far as the master keying goes, I was thinking that their was going to be 1 or 2 master pins in there and remembering that masters are generally higher than the change key I came to that conclusion. How was I wrong. All 5 tumblers had... yep you guessed it... diffrent sized master pins on top of them. I'm just hoping that the locksmith before me cut the master to be the highest of all. Otherwise, im going to have a sore arm, and im going to need more files.
Thanks again everyone

-Pickermeapie

[keysman]

Pick,
There were several methods mentioned, that if followed will get you a working key.
The BEST method is get a cheep set of dial calipers from Harbour Freight or similiar store,+ a locksmith file -rattail or pipin.
Measure the pin and determine the depth from the chart
measure the wafer and add that to the pin length to determine the "other" depth.
Repeat for all chambers.

Now you can cut a working key using ANY combination of the depths for each chamber.
Your lock has 5 chambers with 2 pins per chamber + a top pin and spring
there are at least (2x2x2x2x2) 32 possibilitys for the master key.

With out a working change key and perhaps another lock from the same system you have no way of knowing exactly what the master key is.
The best you can hope for is a lock that will work on 2 or more keys

If you have access to key blanks,and another lock and key from the same system,the rest is just a matter of eliminating the "used" depths from the "unused depths' to determine the master.


Good luck and have fun. Understanding how master key systems are set up and used is an interesting subject and requires a bit of study and a fair amount of patience.