Electric Pickguns

[ski2wv]

Hello all,

I'm the chief police at a university and I'd like to equip all of my officers with lock picking equipment so they can enter a students room if a situation arises without kicking the door in. Virtually all the locks my men will encounter are "Best" brand locks (I know they are tumbler locks but I'm not sure what models they are). Can somebody tell me if an electric pick gun works effectively on that brand of lock (or specific models made by "Best")? If so, could you please recommend a specific brand/model pick gun that would be most effective? Also, I was wondering if an electric gun does any damage to the lock itself. I'd appreciate any help you folks can offer. Thanks for everything. Let me know if you need more information.

[Mr Ules]

I've heard of damage being done to locks when using electric pick guns, however, what would probably be cheaper would be a regular pick gun. They use the same method for opening, and the pick gun is cheaper. For more information on it, search the archieves, and check out www.lockpickshop.com for a picture, description, and price of a pick gun.

[WhiteHat]

Hello all,

I'm the chief police at a university and I'd like to equip all of my officers with lock picking equipment so they can enter a students room if a situation arises without kicking the door in. Virtually all the locks my men will encounter are "Best" brand locks (I know they are tumbler locks but I'm not sure what models they are). Can somebody tell me if an electric pick gun works effectively on that brand of lock (or specific models made by "Best")? If so, could you please recommend a specific brand/model pick gun that would be most effective? Also, I was wondering if an electric gun does any damage to the lock itself. I'd appreciate any help you folks can offer. Thanks for everything. Let me know if you need more information.

Hi there - welcome to the forums.

Before someone tells you to search - I'll see what I can tell you for now.

being that the locks are at a university - I'd imagine that the locks are Interchangable Core locks - meaning that they use one key to open the lock and a different key to remove the core. when picking normaly, this makes it more difficult to open the locks due to the two separate shearlines.

because I'm a hobyist - I've never used an electric pick because it takes the fun out of it. however I'm sure people will tell you that the opening times can vary depending on the biting of the pins (i.e. the key profile), if there are any security pins, the experience of the user, and the quality and the age of the lock.

yes, pickguns and electric picks do damage the locks to a degree - electric picks more so than manual pick guns. I've been trying to find a picture of some damaged pins but can't find them at the moment - I think they came from a powerpoint presentation that was on SSdev or toool's website (ssdev.org/toool.nl) - I'll try to find them.

but the general idea is that if you only use it a few times, then the locks will still be servicable.

even if you do go ahead with equiping your team with lockpicks they will need to have a good understanding of how locks work in order to open them quickly so I recommend that you study the MIT guide ( www.lysator.liu.se/mit-guide/mit-guide.html ) (for want of a better guide)
matt blaze's notes ( www.lysator.liu.se/mit-guide/mit-guide.html ) and have a look at howstuffworks.com's section on lockpicking - even though quite a lot of information on howstuffworks is incorrect or highly missleading, the quality of the diagrams makes up for it.

[TOWCH]

If it's a university system the locks are most likely master keyed. It seems as though it would be easier to just talk to the administration and get the master key if a situation arose.

[David_Parker]

Yeah....and don't most police forces have access to bypassing security measures? And why wouldn't the Administration equip the in-house police with keys? At UTD and UNT they do...

-Dave.

[Romstar]

Almost every single university has an in house locksmith. The majority of the larger ones have to have several on staff. I have seen as many as 15, and heard of even more at a few of the really larger schools.

Also, while there are some schools that use a single vendor, such as Best most of them have a variety of locks on different buildings. Residences, administration, labs, lecture halls, common areas, etc.. This normally comes from a long history of different contracts, different locksmiths and different administrations. The result is that most universities have a hodge podge of lock systems.

The point of all of this is simple. If you are called to any particular area of the campus, you can contact any one of the on-duty in house locksmiths, tell him the location and have him meet you there with the appropriate masterkey or tools to gain entry.

In ANY instance where the safety of life or limb is at stake, I do not believe that anyone will complain that severely concerning a broken door or fram. With perhaps the exception of the poor locksmith that has to repair or replace it.

If all officers are equipted with bypass tools, the potential for misuse increases. If you must have an officer equipted with these tools, I suggest that no more than one or two people be chosen from each duty shift and they should be trained in the various skills of lock picking and bypass. After training, the tools should always be stored at the office, and signed out by the appropriate officer at the beginning of each shift.

This choice of action should be authorized by the dean and the administration, and used only in situations where other means have failed and there is a clear legal reason to believe that entry is necessary. This precludes fishing expeditions, or any other activity which may violate due process and the individuals rights. Regardless of school policy.

Have a meeting with the dean, the head of maintenance (in house locksmith) and legal council for the school before embarking on this course of action.

Have a nice day,
Romstar

[Kith]

If the necessity is truly function over form then I may be able to add a small tidbit of knowledge.

I don't know about electrical pick guns, but my father used a mechanical one at times to gain entry to one of his buildings - He rents his buildings to a mostly younger yuppie crowd since his locales are near an urban hotspot in philly.

At times they thought themselves clever by having new locks installed...at which point he'd bust out the gun and get in in usually under 15 seconds (the most popular brand of lock for people that know no better seems to be Kwickset for some reason) and then just take the lock apart and re-key it.

Having played with it myself on locks around my own house I can safely say that for most generic locks it poses no drastic threat to long term use unless you blatently misuse the gun...which results in damage to the gun quicker then to the lock. ( but bear in mind that the inner workings of a lock are delicate parts and will wear out more quickly using anything other then a correct key) I would assume that higher quality locks would be less susceptable to damage, using better parts.

A high degree of torque on the gun while using it, or using it at an odd angle will damage the lock, and potentially could break one of the (arms? shims? not sure of the correct term yet) .

Again, not sure on the fancy electric gizmos, but with a mechanical gun you have more control over the power applied.

If this will be used in a situation where the person using the gun will be hurried, or not completely focused on what they are doing with the lock (as sounds like may be the case) then the potential for damage to the lock increases exponentially compared to how careful the person by-passing the lock is going to be. This is true with anything used to unlock the lock that is not a correct key.

In any case I agree completely with Romstar that there must be some addministrative oversight or you are asking for (legal) trouble.

[Peaky]

My suspicious mind is at work again after reading your post,

Wouldnt a chief police at a university allready know these answers and surely he/she would have their email address on file and even state which university he/she worked at?
If the university is big enough to have a cheif of police and 'men' (i thought all police called their colleuges officers!) then surely as everyone else here has said there must be a few in house locksmiths and im sure they wouldnt want you doing their job just as im sure you dont want them doing yours

So to answer your last point
Thanks for everything. Let me know if you need more information.
I think we should perhaps have facts that can be checked up on as im sure you are aware we would not want to give details out to a student who is wanting to do a bit of room visiting.

[randmguy]

No offense but I find this situation highly unlikely. I've been an institutional locksmith for years and I have never heard of a university where the seecurity force did not have keys to... pretty much everything. I have done contracting work for smaller schools that had no need for a full time locksmith on staff. If this is what you are dealing with ski2wv then you need to speak with your facilities director and make him aware that its a necessity for the security force to have the means to SECURE things.

Who are the students calling at 3AM when they've lost their keys? Who locks up the auditoriums or the stadium or the classrooms after late night functions? Who opens the buildings in the morning for classes? If you are calling in an outside contractor for these things then you are wasting time and money.

Its not unusual for a university security force to be denied access to control keys for their locks but almost all of them carry a full set of masters for the campus (including the residence areas). Every security force should (at least) have a full set of master keys available at a central location. At my present job the control keys are stored in the safe at the security office. They are inside a locked box in the safe, but that's just because unreasonable paranoia is in my job description.

I have never seen a university security force that NEEDS training or equipment for lock picking or bypassing. This may simply be my unreasonable paranoia speaking again, but if you want training in lock picking or bypassing then just ask for it. You'd be surprised at the number of hurdles you can bypass with a note on university letterhead.

If your people are really breaking down doors to gain access (and I find that incredibly hard to swallow) then YOU are not doing the job for which you're being paid. I am not saying your story is impossible...I've seen the great depths of stupidity that an institution of higher learning can plumb...but I am saying that I find this story highly suspicious.

If you are simply undertrained for your current duties then call any other university and speak with their security people. Most university security directors are former police personnel or other security professionals and they all seem to subscribe to the idea that their job is protecting students, staff, and the university's property (in that order)...So they will almost always be willing to assist a colleague.

As far as training security people in lockpicking, I have done it. Not because they NEEDED the knowledge to perform their duty, but because they were curious. I was taken to task for teaching them how to pick locks by members of the administration. This was just the knee-jerk reaction that the subject of lockpicking engenders. How can you be nervous about someone with the keys learning how to pick the locks? If they don't trust the security force with the keys, then how are they going to feel if they have lockpicking tools and training? Even if you are in charge of a force of doorknob rattling part-time student workers they NEED access to master keys. Getting them these keys should be your priority in the situation you've outlined. If an emergency ever does arise on your campus and you don't have the keys to access the area where you need to be then you'd be better off (from a rapid response standpoint) convincing the administration to purchase you a battering ram. It will get you in faster and it requires very little training to use effectively.

[Romstar]

Randmguy pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Take a look at all of your options.

Romstar

[raimundo]

the problem with teaching security how to lockpick is that they will not have a deep understanding of what they are doing and could screw up the locks, either by breaking off a pick or by turning a core 180 degrees and droping one of the master pins into the bottom slot of the core.

[Romstar]

the problem with teaching security how to lockpick is that they will not have a deep understanding of what they are doing and could screw up the locks, either by breaking off a pick or by turning a core 180 degrees and droping one of the master pins into the bottom slot of the core.

There is no reason not to give them extensive instruction if they require it. Specifically dealing with the types of locks they will encounter is important to the process.

This means educating them about master key systems, and the need to properly turn a plug once picked.

In any case, these are details, and only necessary after the larger issues have been addressed.

Those issues having been layed out in previous posts.
Romstar