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pins jumping back?

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

pins jumping back?

Postby Sebastian » 28 Nov 2003 14:53

Hi.

When I try to pick my trainings-lock i saw that the first pin i set(in my case the last pin), jumps back when i try to set the next pin(in my case the 3rd pin from the front).

Is this normal or do I take too much force?
Thanks for help...
Sebastian
 
Posts: 11
Joined: 18 Nov 2003 15:29
Location: Austria

Postby Mini-Blue » 29 Nov 2003 16:49

Hi Sebastian,

Sounds to me like you're picking them in the wrong order.

My guess is that the 3 and 5 pins are the first two to bind when you put tension on the core and you're picking 5 first because you've been told that you should always pick from back to front. (Good plan when possible, but it's not always possible.)

Try picking the 3 pin first, then the 5, and see what happens.
Mini-Blue
 
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Joined: 16 Nov 2003 1:58

Postby Varjeal » 29 Nov 2003 17:55

Excellent point...it should be noted that the "back to front" idea is an "educated suggestion" not a hard and fast rule.
*insert witty comment here*
Varjeal
Moderator Emeritus
 
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Location: Western Canada

Postby Mini-Blue » 30 Nov 2003 0:14

To expand a bit on this...

The "Rule of Thumb" on picking order is "back to front" or "Fifth to First."

The reason for this is because of how a key operates a lock. Think about what happens when you insert the key in a 5 pin tumbler lock.

Pin stack #1 moves 5 times.
Pin stack #2 moves 4 times
Pin stack #3 moves 3 times
Pin stack #4 moves 2 times.
Pin stack #5 moves 1 time.

You turn the lock and remove the key, and that same procedure happens again.

Hence, Stack #1 sees 5 times more use than Stack #5 and therefore wears (gets thinner) 5 times faster.

Theoretically, this means that your pinstacks will bind from back to front order of least to greatest usage.

Of course, the problem with this is that it assumes that pin diameters, pin hole diameters, and pin hole alignment are all perfectly constant and we know that this can never be. (Nothing is perfect and it is this fact that makes picking locks possible. When you pick a lock, you are exploiting imperfections in the lock.)

I haven't yet run into a lock that picked in perfect 54321 order. Generally, the 4th or 5th pin stack is the first to stick in an old and often used lock, but in newer locks, all bets are off and it can be any stack in the bunch.

Add in the variables caused by dirty locks with crap in the mechanism and you realize that "5th Pin First" is nothing more than a good guess at where to start.

In short, don't get hung up on it. Pick the stack that binds hardest first.
:wink:
Mini-Blue
 
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Postby Chubby » 30 Nov 2003 9:27

Sebastian :I think you will find what you are experiencing is due to pin hole alignment & not wear & tear, pin tumblers are amazingly durable the first thing to go on a well used lock, only after years of use are the key cut's and and the tips of the bottom pins were they come into contact with each other, that and tired springs.
I normally refer to the pin order as #1 being the furthest at the back of the plug to #5 being the pin you can visibly see at the entrance of the keyway, to save any confusion I'll refer to them as set out above.
The pin hole alignment can be perfectly straight centre line/right off set centre line/left off set center line/or random, to find out what you have here's what I normally do:
Insert your tension wrench into the key way and apply medium to firm tension anti-clockwise, insert a diamond pick all the way to the back of the plug and rake two or three times, and make a note of what pins have set high and what pins have not, now turn the tension clockwise and do the same again.
If the rear pins set high when anti-clockwise tension was applied, & the front pins set high when clockwise tension was applied you have right hand centre line off set, if the opposite happened you have left hand centre line off set, & if middle to front set high in both directions (ie:no change) you have random.
I'm guessing you have a random pin alignment on your practice cylinder, and I'm also guessing that as your from europe youv'e purchased a euro practice lock, if so the next thing you want to do is cheating somewhat but it will answer the question to your problem.
As you have a practice cylinder it will be cut-away on the pin chambers so you can see what is happening whilst you are picking, if it is a euro cylinder the actuating cam should be off set at 30º in the locked position ie:sticking out at an angle pointing at one O'clock (There is a reason behind this but that's another story) if it is not a euro cylinder use a tension wrench. Hold the cylinder in your hand with the cut-away's facing you, apply light to medium tension by pushing the actuating cam with a finger or thumb, or use a tension wrench, take a pick with a pointed end and starting with for example pin #3 raise the top pin above the shear line (Not both pins only the top one under the spring) via the cut-away outside of the lock, not inside of the lock! Keeping a mental note (or write it down) of which order each pin will set, ie #3,#4,#1,#2,#5, once the plug is free to turn & the lock is opened you now know the picking order of your practice cylinder, then try picking the lock as standard using this pin order.
If you are still confused about what pin alignment is, go back to the MIT guide there are some pictures, Chapter 6 "Basic Scrubbing" Figure 6.2:

As for what direction to pick, my personal preference is from the rear to the front, some locks won't pick this way I know! but that is where a plug spinner comes into play.
What training cylinder have you got? there should be a brand name stamped on the front...for example BKS. :D
Support your local locksmith -- lose a key. Support your local institutional locksmith -- lose a master key.
Chubby
 
Posts: 126
Joined: 7 Oct 2003 9:52
Location: SOUTHERN EUROPE.

Postby Sebastian » 1 Dec 2003 13:30

First, let me thank to your posts. You are a big help. And, yes i have a bks training lock. I try what you posted.

Thanks again...
Sebastian
 
Posts: 11
Joined: 18 Nov 2003 15:29
Location: Austria

Postby Chubby » 2 Dec 2003 9:52

BKS locks "Boge & Kasten in Solingen" commonly open if you apply right hand/Clockwise tension, give it a try you'll see the difference... :wink:
Support your local locksmith -- lose a key. Support your local institutional locksmith -- lose a master key.
Chubby
 
Posts: 126
Joined: 7 Oct 2003 9:52
Location: SOUTHERN EUROPE.

Postby Sebastian » 3 Dec 2003 10:32

Yes really. I wanted to ask before, but you were faster. There is a great difference to see on the pins. They set different.

While cheating (pushing the pins on the cut-away down...) I noticed that many pins are set to deep.
Well, my picking abilities are getting better in little steps.

But: I´m young and i have time... :D
Sebastian
 
Posts: 11
Joined: 18 Nov 2003 15:29
Location: Austria

Postby att2785 » 6 Dec 2003 4:49

Newb here, got my 14 piece set from south ord today. Have been successfully picking a 3 pin master lock, but have also had the problem of pins popping back up after being picked. One method I found very useful is to pick as many pins you can, then rake it. Hope this helps.
att2785
 
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Joined: 6 Dec 2003 3:59
Location: Illinois, USA


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