simple question

by **runnynose** » 21 Jan 2005 17:52

the locks the city owns are paid for by my tax dollars, so here comes the question even though youve guessed by now. is it ethical to pick the city owned locks? technically, the government is for the people by the people, so am i ethically breaking the law? those are my locks, but i understand on paper theyre the cities locks. as long as i pick and lock back as i found, i dont see the harm, but for ethical purposes i just wanted to see what the forum had to say on this subject.

p.s. the locks im talking about are basically just the locks on metal fences that protect drainage water ponds so that small children dont get hurt...im not talking about the doors to city hall or anything

by **D_Shane** » 21 Jan 2005 18:02

Those locks are mine then too by your theory.
And you'll be spending my tax dollars paying for your legal fees and prision costs when you get caught.

by **runnynose** » 21 Jan 2005 21:48

yes, shane. but theyre mine too. theyre everyones locks, so whats the problem? i cant steal from myself, and im not stealing from anyone if i put them back how i find them. you have to understand the full scale of it before blurting out 'youre gunna get caught and im gunna have to pay for that'. youre too quick to be negative on the subject without looking at the philosophical and ethical questions in a scholarly way. i know the difference between right and wrong. what i do is not wrong because you know in your head and heart what is wrong, but lawfully it isnt right. am i wrong? is the law wrong? are we both a little wrong? i mean men as a whole are the government, so i infact am the government. these are my locks just as much as they are yours, but theyre mine too. ill admit that laws are needed, but i think america in general is a little too quick to overreact to clean fun...such as having sex in a car. whats wrong with that? cops ruining a good thursday night

just curious...what part of florida do you reside. im from pensacola. im 20 year old white male. ive been reading this site for sometime but just now started posting ( i believe romstar replied to a post where he thought about people using the info on this site for bad and when he mentioned people reading and not posting i kinda chuckled cause he is dead on about the reading and not posting). im majoring in philosiphy at the university of west florida, and i hope i become a college professor. but, in the mean time i have a bunch of hobbies and lockpicking is one of them. its awesome, total stress reliever, but i have problems with people being so harsh about it and i guess deep down i have a little resentment for the government. just thought id throw some background cause ill prob be posting more unless 'you all (yall)' talk about what i need to know, which oddly enough for a few months everytime i had a question i could use the search button for an answer so no need to post.

also, my apologies to moderators if this went in the wrong forum. maybe general chatter would of been better

by **Grudge** » 21 Jan 2005 22:05

<SOAPBOX>
Uhhh I think the "for the people, by the people" talks about representation in making laws, not about ownership. The money we send to the government in taxes is really no different than the money I give to BestBuy when I purchase a CD. Money to BestBuy = CD, money to Govt = schools, roads, military, etc. So, even though I am sure BestBuy used part of that money to build the new store near my house, I don't think it entitles me to pick their locks either.

If you want a second opinion on this issue, just try to walk into a military base and borrow one of the M-16s you bought for them, or maybe a tank. I am sure it would end well.

Even if you disagree with this argument, you can only say that you are ethically not doing anything wrong. However there are definitely laws against it and you could face the penalties if you are caught.

Locks are everywhere and cheap. Dollar stores, Walmart, Ebay, flea markets, friends & relatives and even junk yards. Pick your own, or those you have permission to. There is no good reason to do anything else.
</SOAPBOX>

by **David_Parker** » 21 Jan 2005 22:09

Yeah...and if our taxes go to city workers uniforms, then what to stop you me, or us from ripping the shirts off their back. Or saying to a garbage man "Hey, I partially own that truck. I demand you to stop what your doing and allow me to entitle myself to what I own."

If there are about, what....250,000,000 tax-paying Americans, and you claim that every lock in the city is partially yours, you're still not allowed to touch it, because part of that is someone elses as well.

Its not like you've found some loophole in the great corporate system.

-Dave.

by **runnynose** » 21 Jan 2005 23:07

not a loophole, an observation that turned into an opinion. but furthermore, is the lock mine? answer to that obvious, legally no... but tax paying (for the city level mind you, not national or state but you assumed and didnt read the details) i own a part in it. someone owns a part of a company...they share in profts, no? someone owns stocks, they get paid their dividends. those examples are to offset yours, which are kinda outlandish, and im not talking about dump trucks or shirts or m16s, im talking about dormant padlocks that protect a field that holds runoff water. its not a hard concept to counter attack, but dont gang up without thinking it through thoroughly with an open mind.

so im apart of this system that i give money to and get jack-nothing from(besides an informal education and the occasional mardi gras parades where drunk people use city money to throw beads and moonpies at fat kids)....thats really fair and smart, too. basically, the arguement i was trying to get a parallel from was the law and lockpicking. sometimes the law isnt fullproof and there are loopholes and that individuals can decide for themselves what is right and wrong instead of what a piece of paper says. i say all this not to start something, but to try and ignite a thought of more acceptance of what the individual holds to be true, not the group because group mentality is dangerously ignorant.

by **D_Shane** » 21 Jan 2005 23:24

Grunge and David both responded well enough on the subject for me not to explain what I was getting at with the ownership thing.
As for paying for your legal expenses, that was a not too direct way of saying you will get arrested for playing with govenment locks, reguardless of where they are. If they really wanted to go after you for the lock on a storm drain, you could be charged with theft, endangerment, and a host of others I'm sure. Whether your intentions where to replace the lock or not.
My comments were not intended as harsh. Many people here have a jovialness to their replies. The big thing is implying anything reguarding theft. Thats a touchy subject considering what this forum is all about. There's a large prejudice against lockpicking, and the idea that since you partially paid for the lock so you can pick it does throw a dark light down for lockpicking in general. The main thing is that it is not acceptable to practice on anything that you do not own, or have permission by the owner to practice on. there are plenty of places to get practice locks, quite a bit for free.

I too am bothered by the harshness people take to lockpicking. Consider what you said about Romstar posting about people reading this forum. Don't think of a criminal reading it, think of it as someone who has nothing better to do in their day. There are people that feel they are only doing something if they have a cause to fight for, and during their google search LP101 pops up. After telling her gossip group all about it, they decide to do something and contact the local politician, and start getting petitions signed, and so on an so on.
It doesn't take much for a politician to to be told what they don't think anyone has the right to and start pushing for a law. That may sound extreme but someone with a burr in the backside can annoy enough people to get what they want, especially if it against a minority vote, like lockpicking.
Yes people can decide for themselves what is right and wrong. That's double edged though. When people think the wrong choice was made, they begin to think we cannot make that choice for ourselves anymore. So for our own safety they must make decisions for us. Hence, the activist group above, and it gives them more weight to throw around.

Ok I'm ranting.

Now then, I'm in Fort Walton Beach. Took philosophy too at PJC for along with business, electronics, and psych. I taught at OWCC a few years back on a few courses in land surveying. I'm a business owner -locksmith, automotive repair & customizing, and cleaning services. The garage was destroyed with the hurricane, lost most of my locksmith equipement too, but the cleaning business survived undamaged. Unfortunately, the buildings we contacted were damaged...figures.

Dave

by **runnynose** » 21 Jan 2005 23:45

oh man, you are so close to me, and pjc (pensacola junior college for you non florida panhandle living folks) is like two blocks from my house. hurricance was not a good time... howd you like the no electric hence no air conditioning for 3 weeks? bet a buisness owner like yourself prob had some dough for a generator. small world, but...
how incredibly enthused i am that your reply was thoughtful and not gang banging me down. i too see that side of legality, but i like to shake things up, not much of a stirrer. it gets under my skin when i tell an aquaintence that i can pick locks, and they automatically say something stupid that equates to me breaking the law. its a but i deal with it.

but hey, if you ever want an apprentice for locksmithing, someone to drive a van around or anything of the such id happily switch careers (i work at jersey mikes across from pjc making sub sandwhiches and daydreaming). hell id do it for free as long as you taught me cool stuff.

by **David_Parker** » 22 Jan 2005 2:03

My comments were not intended as harsh. Many people here have a jovialness to their replies.

Completely true. I had no intention of harshness.

There's a large prejudice against lockpicking, and the idea that since you partially paid for the lock so you can pick it does throw a dark light down for lockpicking in general.

This I also completely agree with. Any non affilated member of this forum who reads your post might be inclined to think that we as a lockpicking community codone such acts. And must respond accordingly to the impliments of such questions. I'm not saying that your observation is wrong. I see your logic fully. However, the harshness of replies, whether there are any intended or unintended, do have reason.

Its a major problem with Urban Exploration, which in my opinion, for the sake of controversy and many a large debate, should avoid from asking too many questions towards the concern.

We need to stay on the legal side of things mainly to show that yes, we agree with the by-laws and restrictions on our hobbytaking, in order to ensure that we survive as a sharing community.

-Dave.[/quote]

by **David_Parker** » 22 Jan 2005 2:08

Ha. Once again, as said in many posts "On a lighter note"

I find it somewhat amusing that the title of this thread is "simple question" when at first, after reading, it appears to be a simple inquiry. But after you look into it, you start to realize that it gets a little bit more heavy.

Like a decieving lock. You begin to think that "hey...its just a normal Abus-Diskus" and then after a few tension places and pick attempts, you start to see that oh-no....its a little bit more tricky.

-Dave.

by **runnynose** » 22 Jan 2005 4:33

when you put it like that david, i can completely understand.

and i suppose with so many new people just asking completely obvious 'im trying to break into things' questions and making stupid comments that when you see a user name such as mine that isnt that cool sounding and has only 20 posts its pretty much time to beat down verbally. i mean id do the same thing, but im new and all. maybe ill get a chance when i progress...

but i have another simple question, a lot simpler.
has anyone purchased the peterson rubber grip picks? they look pretty sexy being all black, and im thinking about scoring the 7-piece. i was hoping for some testimonials. im not good at making picks yet, but i do make some good tension tools if i do say so.

by **HeadHunterCEO** » 22 Jan 2005 8:35

my friend who ate way to much LSD in the nineties used to always come up with thoughtsd like this

by **jason** » 22 Jan 2005 8:52

The problem that I have found with tools coloured black is that I always lose the bloody things - I end up wrapping brightly coloured (white and red) electricians tape around them so I can find them easily on a lockout.

As regards the "I paid towards the lock therefore I can pick it element" - I would merely suggest that you can pick open the 1/1,000,000,000 part that you paid for and the remainder you should leave well alone. If you want to play with locks, either ask a locksmith for some old ones or look around rubbish dumps and salage yards.

I don't want this forum to be considered in the same light as some of the newsgroups on locksmithing.

Here endeth the sermon

by **raimundo** » 22 Jan 2005 12:32

for the people by the people is not in the constitution, it comes from lincolns gettysburg address, 1863 when florida was not in the union, and anyway, 'We the people' in the constitution changed in the late 1800's when the supreme court made 'corporations' into people, (the meaning of the word corporeal) but elite persons, without responsibility for their actions when things go wrong, and only able to vote with money, not the insignificant ballot that ordinary people have. By the people, for the people is as obsolete as the 9th amendment (part of the bill of rights that the power structure is unable to allow.)

by **locksmistress** » 24 Jan 2005 12:12

Ethics: picking locks.

If you own 100% of the lock, 100% of the door, and 100% or everything on the other side - you're clear.

If you have the permission of the person who owns the lock, the door, the contents, etc... you're clear.

If there is a life or death issue that picking a lock will resolve, you can probably pick it and resolve the details later.

That's pretty much it for ethical lockpicking.

Consider the landlord who owns a building. Even he/she is not allowed to access a leased space without notice (usually 24 hours is required). In spite of 'owning' the lock entirely.

beginnerlockpicker: Unless you're a municipal employee you should #1 not pick locks on municipal properties and #2 you surely should not attempt to discuss it here.

runnynose: I like the Peterson rubber grips. Check out the manual lockpicks topic for more - rubber handles deaden 'feedback' but a little grippiness can be good when you're picking exterior locks at 20 below and your fingers are numb anyway. Might not be a concern in FL, but there's my testimonial for what it's worth.

simple question

simple question

for the people by the people

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