Dudley Combination Locks

[rayman452]

Hey guys, Im trying to find a way to crack Dudley combination locks. So far, Im getting pretty close, and it seems to work. What I need is somebody with a dudley lock to get me the sticking points, so I can attempt to crack their combo. Much thanks to whomever can do this. If my way works, I'll share it with everyone here. But before that, I gotta be able to crack 20+ combos to make sure I dont get lucky. thx guys

[Orange_Crusader]

First off, I'm new here, stumbled upon this site, and got interested in lockpicking. I have a "natural" fascination with puzzles and solving them, so that's probably it.

About the sticking points. I've been studying my Dudley (I own 3 of them, one is broken, one I use at school, and one I just fool around with, the one I'm talking about now), and the sticking points are at:

0-4
6-10
12-16
~17-22
24-28
30-33
36-40
42-46
48-52
54-58

Having never seen one of these opened up, and only guessing:
There are 10 points where it can move.
The dial only is attached to the last "wheel", and picks up the other 2, which is why you have to turn it clockwise twice at the start, to collect up those other two wheels.
Each wheel (disk) has a 6-digit wide nub on it which is used to move it. The lock opens by having the last disk manipulate the first and second ones to the right spots, otherwise, the first and second disks are free to move. Since I don't know where exactly the notches are in each disk relative to the moving nub, or where the pin that lets it open goes through each notch (perhaps at 0, but I don't know). I don't know whether the combo you put in is calculated at the factory (there seem to be some trends in the numbers, though), or at random. Probably a formula or something.

I also don't know where the "pick-up" bit is one the disk controlled by the dial, relative to 0.

I've been going over this lock for a few days in my spare time (i.e not much), and trying to figure out how many possible combos there are for these locks, following the general "rule" that no 2 numbers can be the same, the third number is greater than the second, and, generally, the second number is smaller than the first, there are 10 teeth per disk (guess), and that you can try the last number as many times as you like.

First off, start with 1000 possible combos (each disk having 10 points, 10x10x10)

Subtract any possible combos with 2 identical numbers, or those in the same point, (10 for first-last disk, 10 for first-second disk, and 10 for second-last disks having same combos, -30 there)

Subtract combos with all numbers being same (-10)

So now we're at 1000-30-10=960 possible combos.

Now you'll have to factor in that you can try the last number an infinite number of times (well, 10, one for each point), leaving you with only the first 2 numbers to figure out, the third being almost a giveaway.

And that's where I stopped with that, since I found a bit of an easier way, but it might not work.
____________________________________________________________

Well, since you only have to find the first 2 numbers, the last being almost a given:

10x10, for 10 points per disk= 100 combos

subract 10 for identical numbers

So now it's 90 possible combos that you have to find, trying every possible last number for each. In all likehood, it'll be within the first 10-20 you try. If I can get another lock, I'll try this "solution" out. So far this is all theory, and I haven't included the "rules" that say that the second number has to be smaller than the first.

Anyways, Rayman, try your solution with my lock. I don't quite see how the sticking points help, but good luck. Oh, and any comments on my theory or methods above?

[felspar]

I ground open a Dudley combination lock a little while ago, I'll post the pictures of the interior in a little bit.

[rayman452]

Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate it. One more thing, could you also please tell me what colour your dudleys are? Either black dial, blue dial, or the old grey oens. Correct, there are 10 sticking points, but its only a 3 digit tolerance. Im currently asking my friends, and am knoticing a slight pattern. WIth the lock, should be spots where the lock doesnt wiggle between anynumbers at all, and is just stuck. Also, with the stickign poitns, could you please tell me how much they wiggle by exactly? If its moving between 2 numbers, name the two numbers, and if its 3, the middle number.

Thx

[Orange_Crusader]

Ah, forgot that. Mine has a blue dial, fairly new.

Alright, here we go again with the middle numbers of the sticking points.
I've noticed it has 4-digit intervals between the points, it tries to stick it 3 digits, but you can easily rotate it to 4, with no movement of the bar, simply by moving the dial down (using the defect that lets it jiggle back and forth).

Ok, here we are, the ones with 4-digit tolerances are given as _-_: To get the 3-digit, non-trick numbers, use the lower number. Here are the mid-points. Maybe mine is a bit worn out (I found it, after all, in the football field, and got the combo by accident on this site.

2-3
7-8
14-15
19-20
26-27
32
38
44-45
49-50
56-57

And the spots where it can't move at all, each 2 digits, are the digits I left out in my last post, you can figure them out easily from those, I think.

These are somewhat imprecise, but still hard to "crack", not something you see often.

Oh, and felspar, take your time with those pics, no rush to get them up.

[rayman452]

Ok, it helped slightly. Although IM a little disappointed its a blue lock, I still think I may be on to something. 7, 15, 38 . Are any of those numbers in the combination? I also want you to cheek out the 38 again please. If that did work though, hurray for me

[Orange_Crusader]

Well, yes, you have one of the numbers almost spot on (7), and another very, very close (15, it's 18, one space more). The 38, however is a bit far off. I looked at it again, an, with the little little bit of give (so it's 4-digit, probably wear and tear), it's 37-38. Oh, and when it's open, the dial will spin only 3 digits, no less, no more. This seems consitent with my school lock. I'm guessing that he 4-digit movement that I'm finding is due to ear and tear, starting to etch and wear off the edges and corners of the disks, making it more imprecise.

The combo is 25-6-18, but you can be a few off on each, so 5-7, 17-20, and 24-26 will work just fine. The older a lock is, the more rounded the notches are, so I think it can be off by even a bit more, and still slip in and work.

Theoretically, at this point, we can start reffering to the combo in the 10-point mode, rather than the printed numbers.
In that sense, my combo is (going clockwise, each point numbered 1-10) is 5-2-4.

While this (so far) isn't making the locks any more "crackable", it does make them a bit easier to pick, with only about 90 possible combos and the last number being almost a dud. Pretty much a 2-number combo, really.

I'm also wondering is the moving nubs (6-digits wide for each disk) are different for each lock, or if Dudley uses a standard disk, with the correct notch different for each lock. Maybe the moving nub is different for the black (seems the same as blue, though) dialed, or gray dialed locks. Maybe the letter on the back (mine is H) has something to do with it.

About the moving nubs, each seems to be 7-digits wide, or, using the sticking points, has two 2-digit thick pieces, with a 3-digit wide gap that allows the lock to open (lets through the shaft). I'll have to see the innards to really figure out how the dial-disk (last disk) moves the other 2 (either together, one at a time, with the 7-digit gap being smaller for one disk, or being moved at a different spot (i.e. each movable disk has its own mover, a piece that contact the disk from either the front or back, that is attached to the last-disk shaft.

Anyways, keep at it with your solution, I'll try to get how it works exactly, and if anything exists than can give away hints to the combo, etc. Felspar, just get those pics up eventually, they will help.

[rayman452]

Im actually pretty happy with getting two of your numbers. I was trying my technique, which Ill explain in a bit when I scan my chart out, with some friends at school for a comparison. One thing about my chart though, I can always seem to get 2 of the numbers, but the 3rd one is eluding me. Back to the charts I guess...

On the other hand, since everyone just looks at this topic and doesnt respond, I have knoticed a very big pattern. All the locks I've looked at will tend to bind at the same spots, there are 10, and the spots are directily opposite from the other. SO essentially, there are 5 possible spots, then the other fake notches are on the oppisite of that. Ill get back at it though. Little busy tonight( Cadets), but Ill find something out. LEts see if the forum newbies can crack this!

Edited by Chucklz: Questionable activities removed.

[Orange_Crusader]

Questionable activities removed

Questionable?

Ok, back to the locks.

I'd love to see that chart, seems to be very, very close to the combos (within the right point, or 1 or 2 off). The only number you didn't get for mine (more or less) is the last one, which anyone can get with 10 seconds to spare, since you can try it indefinetly. All you need, then are 2 of the numbers (which you got), and the order the come in. So, you just about got my combo, the last number being unimportant to figure out.

One thing, how does your chart work? Does it use the sticking points, a formula, etc.? This is getting very close.

LEts see if the forum newbies can crack this!

Now that would be cool, might even show people that noobs aren't always clueless or unable to figure this type of stuff out (well, a few).

As soon as you can, I'd love to see that chart, and test it out on a few locks (there are always a few locked onto the stairway bars at my school that no one knows the combo to, perfect. Also, I'd still like to see (if possible) the innards of these, to help explain where the moving nubs, and combo notches are, relative to each other, 0, etc.

[I'm Just One]

Okay, I admit it, I’m a newbie. I just stumbled across this site earlier today and I’ve taken a look around. This seems like some pretty interesting stuff and I wanna help out if I can.

From what I see, looking at Orange_Crusader’s middle sticking points, I think I’m seeing some kind of “pattern”, although I may be way off. Well, I’ll show you what I mean anyways:


2-3
7-8
14-15
19-20
26-27
-------
32 (-33)
(37-) 38
44-45
49-50
56-57


Alright, I’ll explain what I did. The numbers in brackets (33 and 37) I added on my own to help out my idea. I also divided the list in the middle because I saw a sort of pattern.

As you may notice, the two mini-lists are similar in the way that the numbers on the second list are all exactly 30 higher than the numbers on the first half (ex. 2-3 compared with 32-33, 14-15 compared with 44-45, etc.)

Another thing I noticed was a pattern in the distances between the middle numbers of the sticking points. The distances follow a 3, 5, 3, 5 pattern. As an example we’ll take a look at the first half of the list. There are 3 numbers between 3 and 7 (4, 5, 6) and 5 numbers between 8 and 14 (9, 10, 11, 12, 13). There are 3 numbers between 15 and 19 (16, 17, 18) and 5 numbers between 20 and 26 (21, 22, 23, 24, 25). The second half follows that as well. Where I divided the list is where the patterns isn’t followed. There’s 4 numbers between 27 and 32 (28, 29, 30, 31) but I also noticed that there are also 4 numbers between the end of the list and the start of the list, 57 and 2 (58, 59, 0, 1).

Orange_Crusader, while I neared the end of that paragraph above I noticed that you already mentioned that out of the 10, your combo numbers were 5-2-4 so the paragraph above is likely to be common knowledge to you and rayman452, but I kept it for other newbies like me.

Anyways, to point out something that is already clear as day, each one of Orange_Crusader’s combo numbers are always 1 number below the lowest number of one of the sticking point pairs (in groups 5, 2 and 4 the lowest numbers are 26, 7, and 19 while the actual combination numbers are 25-6-18)

I was going to say something about maybe the combination numbers only appear on one half of the list like Orange_Crusader’s but realize that it probably won’t work with my combo, no matter how the list is divided.

That having been said, I think I just about repeated everything in this post in newbie language and added useless information.

Tomorrow, I’ll have my sticking numbers for you so you can further test your method. I also may have a second set of sticking numbers from a friends locker that I’d like to test your method on. If your method gives the same results as it did for Orange_Crusader’s combo (finding the first two numbers in the combo) I already know the last number of the combination (even though its just a matter of playing with it to find out the last digit), which gives you another Dudley lock to work with.

[Orange_Crusader]

Excellent, we have another member (newbie to boot) working with us. This is getting fairly refined now, and I think we're starting to crack Dudley's code on these locks.

As a thought, does anyone know of anyone's combo (their own, loose-lipped friend's, etc.) whose numbers fall on the dead points between the sticking points (i.e on the notches, not between them). Only having a few locks to try these things on, and having both combos fit in the sticking points, and knowing that having the right combo have "dead" points in it seems impossible (it won't open, the haft will hit a notch). From now on, I'll refer to combo numbers in the 10-digit form, one number covering one sticking point. The printed numbers here are an illusion, as are the combo numbers (can just as easily use 1-10 rather than 1-59 for the combo numbers), and the lock is really a 2-digit lock with an almost false last number. Seems like more of the illusion of security here to me.

Nice job catching those trends, I'm Just One, it seems you'll have quite a lot to contribute to this effort. Yes, I noticed the 30-digit trend, and the 3,5 one as well reading over this yesterday, and the 4-digit ones confused me. Maybe it's just a glitch, an imperfection. Checl a few other locks and see if/where these 4-digit exceptions fall. One mine, it's split perfectly top and bottom, maybe it's the same for others. Seems about right to me, I think when the combo is made up at the factory, they would need some more precise grounds on where the notches are, and the "dead" points go get a valid combo.

Ok, so with rayman's chart (which, AFAIK) is the best one I have seen or heard of so far, we can get, within one or 2 numbers (printed ones, not the 10-digit code) 2 of the numbers in the combo (again, mine at least). He got my second and last numbers fairly accurately, but the first was off. Even if you know the 2 last numbers, the first (using the 1st<2nd, and 3rd>2nd "rules", still just speculation), the first number should take no longer than 30 seconds to a minute to get right, probably less than that factoring in where you start, and the chance of it being within the first few, or first half). Not too shabby for something though to be one of the better combo locks.

On a bit of a seperate note, what exactly about that notch on the bottom of the u-bar makes these resistant to shimming, like I've heard. If anything, the fact that the locking mechanism is more of a plate than a wedge would make more of a difference.

[rayman452]

Okey, I've been trying really hard to crack my friends lock, after she put this sticky lipgloss all over my dudley. I am almost sure 100% I've cracked her combo, but it wont open. Perhaps I'm 2 digits oof too much or something. As for the chart, I'll be posting it in a bit, probally tomorow, and I am also 100% sure that blue dudley and black dudley locks are different. Posting the chart tomorow...then we see from there. WE could be famous in this forum, the 3 newbies who cracked the "impossible" dudley code. The notch is also used to make it resistant to shimming, since instead of having a lever catch on the notch, it has a bar which slides over and under the notch. Just look at the locking mechanism when your lock is unlocked to understand.

[I'm Just One]

Alrighty, I got another set of sticking points from my Dudley combination lock that I use at school. It was kinda difficult getting these, my lock about 5 years old and probably has seen better times. I was able to get some of the sticking points to wiggle around really close to 5 digits in some places, which is probably just wear and tear (its survived a few falls too). I just took what looked like the middle 2 numbers for all of them.

3-4
10-11
15-16
22-23
27-28
33-34
40-41
45-46
52-53
57-58

It again follows the 3 and 5 pattern like Orange_Crusader’s but reversed, 5, 3, 5, 3, etc. Again there are 4’s in the middle of the list and connecting the end of the list to the beginning.

I also got the sticking points for my friends lock which I wanted to test out your method on. Like I said before, I already know the last number, and I also know the general area of the other two. I’ll probably find out the combo tomorrow regardless. The lock is in better condition than mine, and probably a slight bit newer, making it a lot easier to find the sticking points. Here they are:

4-5
10-11
16-17
22-23
28-29
34-35
40-41
46-47
52-53
58-59

This one is different from the other 2, instead of a 3, 5, 3, 5, etc pattern, each 2 digit sticking point is separated by 4 numbers throughout the entire thing. Maybe each lock has either a 3, 5, 3, 5 pattern or a 4, 4, 4, 4 pattern.

Or maybe every lock is supposed to have a 4, 4, 4, 4, etc pattern and its just ours that are different from wear and tear (mine has been used a lot and the one Orange_Crusader used was found on a football field.

Anyways, you can give these 2 sets a try for now rayman452, hopefully they’ll be helpful (I’ll post the correct combos later). I will see if I can get more soon, my school supplies us with the Dudley locks so they are pretty common and I have a lot of friends that have graduated from my school, so now they should be willing to share their combos.

(By the way, both sets of sticking points I gave have blue dials)

[digital_blue]

Sorry, my above post was directed at rayman. I'm Just One slipped his post in there while I was typing.

[frostbyte]

I have no clue about combo lock manipulation, but I do happen to have a dudley combination lock somebody gave me thinking if I pick locks, this would be a great gift. Anyway, it was unopened until this afternoon, and If I new exactly how to find out what you need to know, I'm willing to give it a go. How do I isolate these sticking points?

btw, black dial.