Advanced lock capabilities (for lockouts)

[vector40]

Question for any locksmiths or lockout pros --

There are a whole lot of pretty crazy lock mechanisms out there (most of them discussed on these forums at some point or another), and it does seem like you could spend a very long time trying to understand all of them. On the other hand, the vast majority of stuff that's actually commonly used is much more mundane... if someone was going to start doing lockouts today, in the US, what types of high-security locks do you think they should be fully able to pick or otherwise manipulate open as a necessary part of their ability, and which do you think are a non-issue, just too rare to matter?

For instance, I rather suspect that nobody's going around mastering Medeco picking as part of their business skillset -- if they play with it at all, they do it as a personal challenge. The reason's that you're just not going to encounter very many of the things at all, and if you do, going through the chimney is probably easier than trying to pick it...

But what about others? Just look at the byline on the High Security Locks forum for some examples, though of course there are others.

Any thoughts?

[Romstar]

One of the things that you will learn as you do more and more of these things is that often times you can completely avoid the lock, and manipulate the latching mechanism.

This comes from familiarity as much as anything else. As far as picking goes though, you will want to just keep developing your skills at it. Things like Corbin/Russwin and Medeco, Assa V-10 and others will come or not depending on your dedication and talent.

Your most important tool, and best friend even is reading. Get hold of everything you can from lock companies, books and anywhere else. The more you learn, the better you are. Don't rely on picking alone, but alwyas try for something non destructive.

Romstar

[vector40]

One of the things that you will learn as you do more and more of these things is that often times you can completely avoid the lock, and manipulate the latching mechanism.

Sure... but it seems to me that this is no more "certain" than being able to pick the lock. The obvious example here is businesses -- any number of times, I'll walk through the door of a shop or office, and think, "well, that's a good lock, the door's deadlatched and tightly fitted on all sides, no obvious vulnerabilities, and no windows or other "lazy man's solutions" "... isn't the only real answer here either a destructive entry, or being able to handle what may be a nasty lock?

This comes from familiarity as much as anything else. As far as picking goes though, you will want to just keep developing your skills at it. Things like Corbin/Russwin and Medeco, Assa V-10 and others will come or not depending on your dedication and talent.

Well, this is what I mean If they don't come, should I consider that a failing, and something I need to fix? Or is it gravy, nice to have but not necessary to do the job?

If I'm an auto mechanic and I don't know how to replace brake pads, that's not "well, darn," that's part of my job that I need to do, but can't. I'd need to stick at it until I knew how to change brake pads, and until then, I wouldn't be a real, professional mechanic.

[Buggs41]

If I'm an auto mechanic and I don't know how to replace brake pads, that's not "well, darn," that's part of my job that I need to do, but can't. I'd need to stick at it until I knew how to change brake pads, and until then, I wouldn't be a real, professional mechanic.

Think of it in terms of auto servicing. There are ten minute oil change franchises, Windshield replacement franchises, Mufflers...Brakes...Transmissions....Tires....Body work....Etc.

Same goes for Locksmithing. Some guys only do autos, others do emergency lockouts, some are into security/safes. Again....Etc.

You are only limited by what you want to do. And as Romstar stated, Read everything you can get your hands on.

[Romstar]

Heh, heh, heh.....

Work at picking until your fingers bleed, and you can feel the pins like broken glass across raw nerves.

Okay, lets consider the store front doors. In many cases, they are aluminum stile doors with an Adams Rite or similar latch system.

Even tightly fitted, and well maintained there is an easy way in.

Lockmasters sells a tool that looks like a big flexible "J" with a large "c" clip on one end, and a turning handle on the other. Widen the gap in the door, insert the tool, engage the C on the thumb turn, and twist the handle. Instant open.

Now, this doesn't work on glass doors that have close fitting frames, but it is obviously a viable method on many doors. Especially the double doors found on many businesses in malls and other places.

There are a variety of tools, techniques and other things that you can use for lockout situations on residential and commercial locks.

I've amassed quite a collection of them over the years. Some are no longer hugely viable because of new mechanisms, but in many cases, the basic techniques still work.

Read, read and read more. Also keep practicing the picking. If all else fails, you have a drill. Some locks will absolutely require a drill, despite any other effort. Don't be afraid of it, just don't rely on it.

Romstar

[MrB]

I suspect I know the answer to this, but humour me anyway. How much business (or credibility) would you lose if you said "I don't do lockouts"?

[Romstar]

I suspect I know the answer to this, but humour me anyway. How much business (or credibility) would you lose if you said "I don't do lockouts"?

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I would lose tons of work, and a load of credibility.

A friend of mine refuses to touch vehicles, even for openings. I suppose some people just don't want to touch it, but the way I see it, you can't have one without the other.

Locks break, malfunction, are vandalized and just generally can be a problem. Sooner or later, some of your own installations will experience difficulty. You can't say no to those.

So, you might just as well go whole hog and do them all.

Romstar

[D_Shane]

As a locksmith, as well as many other trades, you will always be a student. It doesn't matter if you have been doing this for years, or not. Technology is always changing and you will need to keep up with the changing technology. You should continually read up on lock related materials.

For what you should or should not know or be able to do, that is both an environmental influence as well as what specific field you may be pursuing. There may be an abundance of Kwikset residential knob and deadbolts in your area, or there may be mortise locks on every other door. Different problems arise from different brands/styles, so different methods to service them. For lockouts, different strengths and weaknesses that can be used to gain NDE. Some easier to bypass, others easier to pick. It may depend on they style of door, lock, whatever. Automotive lockouts - different attacks.

With automotive lockouts, do you or will you have the ability to make new keys to replace a lost set? Will you only provide the lock out service?

With residential, perhaps the lock is faulty. Do you only provide the lockout service, or do you repair and/or replace locks as well? What about other locks...sliding door locks. Providing duplicate keys, rekeying from lost sets of keys.

A lockout may turn into the customer wanting more keys, locks repaired, new locks, new hardware... different knowledge.

This is not to say you must learn extensively to start doing work. Do what you can. If you plan on learning and being prepared (supplies and tools) to do any job that may come up, you'll never be ready. Mainly the mechanics of how a lock works, and the different setups. You will undoubtedly run into something you are not familiar with, or don't have the parts to repair, but with knowledge of how it works, and what the parts do you can get through it. Know your limitations however. If it's something you cannot do, or not equipped to do, refer another locksmith.

One thing to keep in mind, when a customer says they DO have the keys but locks them inside(either a car or house) they don't always have them. You may go to only do a lockout, but they wind up asking to have keys made because they are not where they thought they left them.

Get your hands on higher security locks that may be in your area. Notice the different locks on businesses and houses. Be resourceful, and look around for free ones. Condos with construction dumpsters may be changing out doors, and you can grab the locks. Local locksmiths may let you have a few, talk to maintenance personnel. Take them apart, look for ways you can bypass the lock without picking. Practice picking. Read manufacturer materials on the locks-- you can go to their sites and get a good deal of info for free.

You'll never be able to open every lock you run into, picking or bypassing. Always look for the easiest way in. Get in touch with other locksmiths you might refer to if needed.

Above all, learn and continue to learn no matter how long you do this.

[digital_blue]

For instance, I rather suspect that nobody's going around mastering Medeco picking as part of their business skillset -- if they play with it at all, they do it as a personal challenge. The reason's that you're just not going to encounter very many of the things at all, and if you do, going through the d****d chimney is probably easier than trying to pick it...

I don't know if many locksmiths out there are actually profficient enough with these to take the time and try and pick them on a call, but Medeco locks are *everywhere* where I am. I would say that if you walk up to any commercial storefront, restaurant, etc it is at least a 50/50 of finding a Medeco. I'm not a locksmith, and I have no idea if, in the real world, they try to pick these. My guess is that the company would call the same locksmith that fit the lock and they probably have the locks coding on file anyway, so there is probably little reason to have to pick these. Either way, I know there's a heaping ton of them out there.

db

[vector40]

Great replies, guys.

Rom: In short, are you saying that -- while I should ideally be able to pick most things -- anything I can't pick, I can probably bypass in SOME way (whether weird or wonderful or mundane), and in the rare instances where even that's impossible, there's always the drill. So I should keep improving my picking, and also work on acquiring up the tools and techniques in the (seemingly rather obscure) world of bypassing, and get good at drilling, of course (though doesn't it stand to reason that a lock you can't pick may very well be built to resist drilling, too?)

"Read, read and read more." Any suggestions?

Shane: Great remarks, thanks. At the moment, I'm looking at doing lockouts almost exclusively, though comprehensively (residence, business, auto), mainly for the sake of streamlining -- while it's probably not too much of a stretch to add, say, key duplication (+ blanks, + key machine), or rekeying (+ repinning set and a more advanced knowledge of complex lock mechanisms [mortise systems, say] than I have), that's a rather slippery slope; I DON'T have the know-how or the equipment to do full-service locksmithing, nor am I all that interested in it.

It does make a lot of sense to at least combine some basic elements -- for instance, plenty of people will want to get inside, then want a new key made. But again, that's another expenditure that I'm comfortable waiting for.

The flip side of this is that, while even in the realm of lockouts only, you can't just "wing it" with too-little ability. I mean, if someone calls you in, you'll want to be nearly certain that you can do the job, because otherwise you've just wasted your time and theirs, and have not exactly added points to your reputation.

[RangerF150]

I ain't a locksmith, i am a lower form of life, i am a "builder" !
But i have fitted more locks than i care to mention.

And as mentioned above , you are always a student, the day you know it all, quit and move on to somethin else you know nothing about !

Practice your trade within your limits , but keep stetching your limits, it will keep you sharp , interested in what you do, and happy with what you do.

The great thing about what i do , and what you do , is that every day brings a problem you got to figure out, something new to crack.

Some days i spend more time thinking about what im gonna have to do , than actually doin it , i love that


Your prediciment is not a negative , it's a positive , think about all them sad people who go to work , just do it and go home, with little or no thought , sure they do jobs that have to be done , im just glad it ain't my job !


To have a job that requires you to have to do a lot of thinkin ,is about the best job you will ever have.

I really love that "hey i did that " feeling , can't be beat !

Good luck and happy learning

[vector40]

By the way, they finally fixed the Lockmasters site, so I can have some clue what sort of tools you're talking about, Rom. Neat stuff. (Although some of these seem absurdly expensive; $145 for the one you mentioned? Maybe that's a typo.)

[Romstar]

By the way, they finally fixed the Lockmasters site, so I can have some clue what sort of tools you're talking about, Rom. Neat stuff. (Although some of these seem absurdly expensive; $145 for the one you mentioned? Maybe that's a typo.)

No, that sounds about the right price.

When you think about it, all of this stuff seems terribly expensive until you realize that after 5 uses, it's fully paid for. Maybe less depending on what the rates are in your area.

From a hobbiest perspective, it can be terribly expensive, but if you are working in the trade, it makes up for itself.

Romstar

[vector40]

Well, that's one way of looking at it. The other way is, "I'm paying $150 for what amounts to a metal rod in a funny shape."

They charge because they can, no two ways about it.

I'm glad that Lockmasters is back up; looking through this stuff is interesting, and it's all new to me. Rom, do you know any other sites that sell this sort of entry equipment, or is this about the extent of it?

[Romstar]

Well, that metal rod is actually a bit more complicated, but sometimes it is like you say. They charge because they can, and as I said, because if you treat your tools properly it pays for itself after a few uses, and you have it for years.

Lockmasters is one of the best places, although there are some other companies. I have to go through my links to find them though. It also depends on where you are. If you are in the US, this is one of the best companies to deal with.

Romstar