Dudley Combination Locks

by **Orange_Crusader** » 15 Mar 2005 17:37

Basically, that's exactly what we've been getting with the Dudley's. The only differences are that thses go 0-59, 10 positions (notches), and the spacing between the notches and size of the notches differs (apparently with sets only using the numbers 3,4 and 5, in almost any combination of those. Right now, I'm trying to find a way to see if there's any difference in the lenght of the shackle's movement between notches, and the correct notch. The simplest/best idea so far is to just put a mark on the shackle at its highest point (on a regular, non-correct notch) with a permanent marker, and simply go around the numbers. I'll see if there's a way to get the 2nd number this way as well, but that will take a long time, having to put in the first number every time, for each possible notch. Anyone else have any more ideas for these locks? Anyone have one that's broken or that they don't use and wouldn't mind opening up and scanning in or taking pictures of opened up? Most of this endeavor is at a dead end until that openable lock is found. Oh, and what happened to rayman? He used to be one of the most prominent posters in this thread (and in LP101 in general, most forums), but he hasn't posted here for a while.

by **MrB** » 15 Mar 2005 18:48

I don't know that you will find out anything miraculous from opening one up. I saw a photo or diagram of the internals of one recently, but I can't remember where it was now. Maybe it was on How Stuff Works?

Typically the dial drives a metal wheel and the other two wheels are plastic. The wheels have 10 or 12 rectangular notches cut into them around the circumference, and the notches are cut a little deeper where the gates are.

by **Orange_Crusader** » 15 Mar 2005 19:04

I expected as much, more or less some confirmation of the theories, seeing what can be done to crack it, etc. But plastic? The click heard when the other disks are moved seems like metal-on-metal, but we'll see when it's opened. I've seen Master lock opened, but no Dudley's. Could you find a link for it?

by **Sabin37** » 17 Mar 2005 0:39

If the dial on the Dudley lock is not turned after the shackle is pushed back in and locked, there is a way to figure out the first and second numbers very easily.

Start by slowly turning the dial clockwise until you feel the first wheel collect the second (first wheel collection), which will make the dial slightly harder to turn. When you feel this, stop turning the dial and look at the number it's pointing to and then add about 9 to it. You have just found the second number.

Continue to gently turn the dial clockwise until you feel the second wheel collect the third (second wheel collection), which again adds resistance to the spinning of the dial. The second wheel collection is a little harder to feel but with a little practice it gets easier. As soon as you feel the second wheel collection, stop turning the dial and add about 4 to this number. This is the first number.

This also works on Master combination locks but instead of adding 9 and 4, you subtract about 2 and 2. When feeling for the first and second numbers on these ones, the dial is also rotated clockwise.

Remember to be very gentle with the dial when feeling for the first and second numbers. I'm very interested to hear your results.

by **Sabin37** » 17 Mar 2005 1:03

Also, my Dudley that I did this with has a blue dial. If the dial is a different color, the numbers you add (9 and 4) might be different.

by **digital_blue** » 18 Mar 2005 20:44

Ok boys 'n girls. I was in a Zellers today and so I finally decided to break down and spend the $5 on a dudley lock. Here are the results of an autopsy. Sorry this is gonna be a long one, lotta pics. And, as always, sorry for the poor quality of the pics.

This is the dudley I bought:

And this is what it looks like with no case:

And here is why I don't think sticking points will ultimately lead to cracking the combo:

What you see here is that the wheel that designates the last number of the combo physically connected to the back of the dial that you turn. It has all of these false gates and the outside diameter of this wheel when measured to the outside of the gates is the largest of the three wheels in the pack. The outside diameter of this wheel when measured to the bottom or inside of the false gates is the same size as the diameter of the other two wheels.

This is a pic of the workings when the correct combo has been entered and the shackle has been pulled:

And this is a pic of the workings when the lock is in the locked position. Note that there is what appears to be a false gate on each other wheel as well:

As you pull down on the shackle to obtain your sticking points, you will find that what you get is 9 false gates and one actual gate (which is the last number of the combo. I see absolutely no way that one would determin the number at which either of the two other gates is at by the sticking points at the false gates on the last wheel.

I hope this sheds some light on your mystery.

db

by **rayman452** » 19 Mar 2005 14:41

Thanks for the pictures. I was away for a week out in Alberta as a march break trip, and didnt get too much you guys posted. The pictures of the lock were as I expected, but the gates. Is it possible to take more pictures of the gates? I know that there should be three disks. Do you think you can show each individual one? Also closer pictures would help. I'll try to go to my school and get on, then cut it open. I have a digital camera with okish quality, so it will do. (can see my fingerprints)

by **digital_blue** » 19 Mar 2005 16:48

Okalie dokalie. Here's a scan of the wheels in a better resolution than my Palm can provide.

Hope this helps.

db

by **Orange_Crusader** » 20 Mar 2005 13:35

It's also more or less what I expected, but the design of the 1st and 2nd disks did throw me off a bit. It narrows it down, though. Looking at the gaps and tolerances there, it seems consistent with our theories, and (as digital_blue said, makes the sticking points fairly useless in figuring out the locks.) Seeing as the locking bar can only fall into 2 spots, then maybe a certain amount of pressure could be applied while turning to the first number, and when a gate is hit (false of real), the shackle would move. Then again, there would still be the other disk blocking the locking piece. db, were both of the dials fixed in the same position (with the gates lined up with each other) in the lock, or was one "backwards" from the other?

The tension idea (like a tumbler lock :wink:

) could be used to get the second number once you have the first, but I can't think of any way to get the first number at the moment. Any thoughts?

I'll pick up a blue-dialed one from school if I can, take it apart, and scan it in. Thanks for the pics, db, much appreciated. I'll go over those tomorrow afternoon, I'm kinda busy today. Could you also measure a few things on the lock? Namely, the depth of the gates and false gates, exact distance between the notches on the 3rd disk, and anything else you think could help. Thanks a lot.

by **rayman452** » 20 Mar 2005 20:25

Look at those notches. Thats very nice, very nice indeed. Knotice how the false notches are square, and that the real ones have a beveled edge, almost like to guide the shackle in when it gets close to help aid the user. As we know from lockpiucking, nothing is impossible. It's just hard or the tool to make it be opened in a snap hasnt been invented yet. Lets humor the idea for now that the sticking points do make a difference. Perhaps, d_b, can you measure the grate points and label them in a pictorial thingy? You should find that the distance is identical to the opposite side, 180 degrees across from it. IF only I could get dials for myself to play with. Or maybe, just maybe, are those dials in the exact same position you found them taking them out?

by **Sabin37** » 21 Mar 2005 1:29

What's the best way to take apart a Dudley so I can look at the internals of the lock?

rayman, could you still try and crack my lock with your chart method. I'm curious to see how accurate it is. Thanks.

by **bsbg13** » 21 Mar 2005 11:34

did anyone figure out the combination to my two locks that i posted earlier on in the month. i`d really appreciate it if you could help me figure out the combinations. also, just curious, but how long does it usually take to crack a lock?

by **rayman452** » 21 Mar 2005 18:33

Ok, about the chart. If I put my full attention into it, it takes around less then 5 minutes. Now being a Canadian teen, I get distracted by polar bears attacking my igloo. WHen I get a moment of free time, I will attempt to crack your combo. What Im thinking is that I may be able to round off some numbers for you, and would it be ok to you if I came up with more then one combination?

by **digital_blue** » 21 Mar 2005 18:54

Ok... here's the measurments you guys wanted. (Or at least some of them). All measurements are to 1000th of an inch done with a dial caliper for acuracy.

Third wheel (with all the false gates):
Outside diameter to outside of false gates: .812"
Outside diameter to inside of false gates: .746"
Measurement from notch to notch on false gates: .197 (same for true gate)

Other 2 wheels:
Outside diameter: .762"

Somebody let me know if you ever crack these things. I still think you're all chasing something that isn't there.

db

by **rayman452** » 22 Mar 2005 15:48

Ummm, milimeters for us canadian folks? Im sure that theres a way to open these. Even if I have to find a bypass method...Ill find it eventually...perhaps a magnet or something....

Dudley Combination Locks

Who is online