Schlage Primus

by **raimundo** » 22 Mar 2005 10:13

yes, Jimmie, I believe that they can buy special cuts, Lockmistress sells them at her shop. Shes an industrial/architectural locksmith, the kind that put original hardware on new buildings,

by **zekeo** » 22 Mar 2005 12:40

DB: there IS a fuzzy moral line. For example, I want to practice on the medeco locks at my job. I am the manager of the business, I have the keys, I'm responsible for all the financial aspects of the division. Who do I ask? Do I ask my supervisor? The president of the company? The owner of the company? The shareholders of the company? The landlord of the building? The owner of the building?

Realistically, I've got the key, I'm responsible if the locks have to be replaced, so I'm going to pick the locks if I want.

Despite the small risk of damaging the lock, and the small amount of wear and tear, if you've got the key, pick it. I think this is a perfect line that the public could accept, letting us advance the hobby. It would also help us clarify who we help on this site. When there is an iffy situation, simply ask do you have the key?

by **master in training** » 22 Mar 2005 12:46

im sorry, but i dont think having a key gives you the right to pick a lock.

you say you are the manager, but if someone see's you picking a lock, they tell all their friends waht they saw, then, if things start going missing around the place, who will all the fingers point at?...

its a sad fact, but most people who do not know about picking associate it with criminal activities.

even though you are the manager of a company, would it be you who fixed the toilets if they broke, would it be you who let someone into their office if they got locked out? the only person employed by the company even remotely likely to be seen picking a lock is a janitor and even then, janitors will almost never pick a lock. its hard to explain away if you are caught...

theres also the fact that you are supposed to be setting an exmaple to people to work hard, picking isn't really working is it.

by **zekeo** » 22 Mar 2005 12:50

MIT- I am the one accoutable for our inventory shrinkage, I have the key, the alarm code, the master safe combo. I can write checks on the company account, I have a compnay card. I can withdraw as much cash ($200,000) from the company account as I want today. And yes, I fix toilets. Yes, I let people into offices if they're locked out.

Of course, I wouldn't do it during office hours!

by **master in training** » 22 Mar 2005 12:57

in that case i'll take a cheque for $200,000 :wink:

in that case i'd say fine, go ahead and pick, but if you get caught or anything and anything bad comes of it, its your own fault. the safe way to pick is only with locks bought for picking, but if you choose to pick others, its your choice, theres nothing anyone on here can do or say to advise you otherwise.

by **digital_blue** » 22 Mar 2005 14:00

zekeo: I understand the point you're trying to make, but I still really don't agree. I don't know your company org chart, so I am not the one to tell you who you should ask, but the bottom line remains the same. Now, since you have been given ultimate authority over your store I concede there may be an argument there (ie: you ARE the one with the authority over that lock), this situation does not apply accross the board. Just having a key cannot automatically give you the right to pick the lock. What about situations where many people have keys (like for instance in a school, which is where this all started from, right?). Do you suppose that if mr Dent were to go to his administration and ask permission to practice his hobby of lockpicking on school property (even if it's only on locks he has the keys for) that they would happily agree? Truthfully, I don't know, and I suspect neither does he. If they would not want him picking the lock, then he has no business picking the lock. Simple as that.

Even in your situation if your boss (whomever that might be) did not want you to be picking the lock on the door (and that isn't a far fetched scenario) then you have no business picking it.

If I was, for example, the General Manager of a hotel, and decided during my slow moments to practice picking locks on the doors, that would likely not bring up an ethical issue, as I have been given complete custodianship of the establishment. If, however, I am a housekeeper who, for the purpose of my job, has been given a master key, I have no business picking the locks without permission. Key or no key, they are not my locks and I don't have the authority to pick them.

I maintain that this isn't fuzzy at all. It is a simple code of conduct I wish all lockpicking enthusiasts would adopt:

You may only pick locks that belong to you, or those to which you have been given expressed permission by the legal owner.

That is a simple litmus test by which we can determine who to help and who to turn away.

Understand that anything short of this creates a slippery slope where judgement calls need be made. Example: "Hmm... well, he has the key, but he's only supposed to access that room for work-related business..."
The above rule makes it simple. And for those, as you call them, "fuzzy" areas, it doesn't exclude them. Just ask permission if you're not sure. Pretty simple, eh?

db

by **zekeo** » 22 Mar 2005 20:46

DB, I think you have a pretty good point. For the most part I agree with you. One question though: If someone has a key for "only work related purposes" then why would they have to pick the lock to get in for other purposes? They have the key which they can use dishonestly much easier than picking.

So, I guess I agree with your conclusion but not your reasoning. It seems like my situation is unique in that I have sole authority over these locks. People shouldn't be picking locks that they don't have responsibility for, like the OP at school. I think the best reason is because of the risk of damage, wear and tear, etc.

by **digital_blue** » 22 Mar 2005 21:33

What I was getting at is that people are often issued keys because they need access to an area for the purpose of doing their job. The admins didn't intend for that person to be going in there just for kicks, nor did they intend for that person to be picking the lock just for kicks. For example, if I work in a hospital and I have a key to the records department because I have need in my day-to-day business to access that area, it does not mean that I am allowed to wander around the records area any old time I want, right? Even though I have the key, there are limitations on my legitimate use for it.

I think that the same idea holds true in our discussion. Often keys have been issued to people for various reasons, but even the issuing of the keys comes with a set of limitations and expectations. To use an "over the top" example, when you were granted the keys to your store, was the intention so that you could bring your friends in after hours and drink all night long? Probably not. I suspect this would constitute an inappropriate use of your privlage. In the same way, picking a lock that is not yours even if you have been issued a key is an example of inapporpiate use of the lock.

At the root of all this is common sense. I really believe that if we are honest with ourselves we know when what we are doing is right and when it's wrong. Don't do wrong stuff when it comes to lockpicking.

Of course every time this issue comes up I end up feeling like a lone voice in the wilderness and wondering if I'm just trying to make the lockpicking hobby into something it's not, namely good clean fun. I would really expect the whole community here to jump down peoples throats when the topic of "mildly illegal" activity comes up, but in the end so many seem very forgiving about this. To tell the truth, it drives me crazy! (Can you tell?

)

db

by **zekeo** » 23 Mar 2005 1:27

"it drives me crazy! Can you tell?"

Yup... and it seems like my role is to give you crap about it all the time/ :wink:

by **Dent** » 23 Mar 2005 3:21

Do you suppose that if mr Dent were to go to his administration and ask permission to practice his hobby of lockpicking on school property (even if it's only on locks he has the keys for) that they would happily agree? Truthfully, I don't know, and I suspect neither does he.

I can't say much for the president because I haven't really ever seen him, but I can say that I know/are friends with all the security guards and they generally have no problem as long as I don't break into anyplace(which I wouldn't).

My professors and boss don't care and have even tried picking some spare locks I have around.

I already have picked in front of my boss and professors other locks on campus(lower security schlage and some no name's) and given presentations to 2 classes on lockpicking(and I only freaking started this like a month ago).

If I want to learn how to pick a spare schlage primus cynlinder that I have, I don't see how it is the ethical concern of this message board to worry if I will use said techniques to illegally break in anywhere.

All this does is promote people lieing on the boards...

At least I am being honest, by your standards it would have been a lot simpler to make a post saying "I just ordered a schlage primus cynlinder and it arrived and was wondering for some tips on picking it"...

Obviously this is the internet and we are for the most part anonymous, futher more this is a website than is devoted to helping and informing people to operate locks without the keys.

I think if you do go ethical-crazy with who you will and won't help, you are going to decrease the quality of the board because everyone will phrase their question as "Well I am a locksmith and just recieved XXX and I am looking for help to pick my own lock".

I think that while you shouldn't help anyone bypass locks quickly, you also need to leave the responsibility on the end-user alone.

Not giving me help on picking a primus won't stop me from breaking into non-primus doors on campus or using my primus key's to get inside to steal things....

I guess my point is, I'm not trying to do anything unethical here, I am just looking for specific picking information for this lock which I have, have keys too and have permission to pick(on my cynlinder that I am borrowing).

So anyway, if anyone is willing to help with some of my specific questions addressed earlier, please let me know or direct me to somewhere where there is info.

I'm just saying, that you are worried about hurting the hobby of lockpicking due to helping unethical behavior, I think you should also be worried about hurting the hobby of lockpicking due to lack of good information and un-willingness to help the hobby.

by **zeke79** » 23 Mar 2005 9:30

Well I think the implied rules here are that if a lock is not yours then do not pick it. Simple as that. We cannot stop what you do on your own time but we do follow rules on what we discuss here. We all have a duty to uphold an image that we are ethical people. Discussions such as this can make new comers to the site think otherwise. The Schlage Primus is not to be discussed in the open forums any ways.

by **digital_blue** » 23 Mar 2005 10:20

You know zeke79, bravo! You have a knack for taking what takes me 14 paragraphs and communicating the same thing in one! Great job!

Yes, I agree. I feel it is important to promote an ethical approach to this hobby. Whether somebody chooses to lie to us, or chooses to use the information for illegal purposes is not really the point. The point is that I know I did what was right.

Dent: In your case specifically, now having all the information you provided, I think that there really is no ethical concern for you picking those locks. If your boss is ok with it, then have at'r!

I was not trying to make you look bad, but whenever something that looks as though it is illegal shows itself here, I think we all have a responsibility to sound the horn. No disrespect intended. As for the Primus in question, zeke is right. Those locks are only to be discussed in the advanced forums.

db

by **Beekeypr** » 28 Mar 2005 17:06

Actually, Primus & Assa Twin were developed by the same person/company. Assa and Schlage are licensees of Widen Innovation. You'll see the little stylized WI on Primus keys.

by **CaptHook** » 29 Mar 2005 3:26

If I want to learn how to pick a spare schlage primus cynlinder that I have, I don't see how it is the ethical concern of this message board to worry if I will use said techniques to illegally break in anywhere.

All this does is promote people lieing on the boards...

Actually...... its not a matter of ethics, its a matter of what information we want readily available to anyone with an internet connection. Hence the "advanced" forums.
This is not a troubleshooting club etc, locksmiths find flaws in security products and practices all the time. They take their findings to the manufacturers. This is more of a hobbyist style site, in that common information is freely shared, and info that could be deemed privilaged is not (once again..... the advanced forums)
Chuck

by **c123** » 30 Mar 2007 21:03

I started to write a long letter, but just let it go at this. I am a professional. I work hard to protect people and their assets from wise ass punks who won't pay their dues to really learn the craft.... they want to steal enough information to be dangerous.... if you are in possession of a high security key that you did not sign for then you are a thief.

My name is Richie Martin. I am a locksmith.

If I don't trust you, you don't work in my shop.

Schlage Primus

I believe that they can

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