Learning Security Pins

by **Dent** » 25 Mar 2005 22:49

Hi!

I am working with a schlage cynlinder and have serrated and spoon pins to play around with and wanted to know what would be a good order to learn things in.

Most say that with a regular deadbolt, you should go with 1 pin, 2, 3,4,5.

However I am unsure what to do with security pins.

After single pin with that security pin, what is next?

2 security pins?

a security pin and a regular?

And after that? 3,4,5 and 6 pins?

Just curious since changing pins interupts picking so much, want to get the most out of my time and learn as much as possible.

Also, in addition what would most locks have in the way of security pins?

All security or only like 1/2?

Also I hear that you should set security pins first, but but what if there are multiple ones or that pin # is last to set?

Do you just drive up tension to get them all to set, but wouldn't that interfere with the setting of the other regular pins?

by **digital_blue** » 25 Mar 2005 23:20

Hi Dent. Your instincts are right about picking order. Even with security pins in, the lock will dictate the order that the pins will set in. You can't make it bind on the security pins first.

As for what to do next, try introducing 1 security pin into the mix somewhere, and get teh feel for that. If you get past it really easily, introduce 2 more. If you find the first one a challenge, work it until you're comfortable and then just add 1 more.

I would say that if you're already comfortable with 5 regular pins in, you should probably keep the lock pinned to 5 pins, and just increase the number of security pins in it.

It is common for a lock to have 1 or 2 security pins in it if any at all, though I have at least one lock that has 5 spools in it, so anything is possible.

If the security pins are spools, you will find that you will get a considerable turn to the plug when you get the spool scissored at the shear line, and it will take lightening up on the tension and applying a bit more pressure than normal with the pick to overcome the notch and get the spool totaly past the shear line.

The biggest thing is that you are challenging yourself, and changing it up often enough that you are not just memorizing the lock, but are learning to feel what is going on and react based on that feedback. If you ever find yourself just repeating what worked before you are probably due for some change-up of some sort. Either change pins around or switch locks altogether.

Hope this helps,

db

by **Dent** » 27 Mar 2005 1:22

I am messing around right now with 2 pins, 1 security and 1 regular(spoon and serrated alternating) trying to get a feel for them but I am having a lot of trouble reading the position of each pin.

I'll be honest and say I a bit too lazy/busy to keep going back and re-pinning it for 4+1security that will match the key(don't want to try picking that straight out unless I'm not able).

So I had a couple questions:

1: What do you do if there is a single spool/serrated pin that is in the last binding position? It seems that setting it with light tension might result in many of the first pins un-setting, but wouldn't that cause you to be unable to keep the security pin set without major torque.

You say that I am correct and that if it is last you still have to pick it there, but how do you actually go about doing that? MIT and other guides seem a bit vague.... They mention reverse picking of course but that seems to only work if it is one of the first pins to set, and all the talk about light action and reverse plug turning to set spool regularly would seem to upset previously set pins...

Is there a set method for these things or is it just having a lot of time playing around with them?

I'm still having troubles with 2 pins(I can get it to open but I'm still unsure exactly how I'm manipulating the pins... getting the security to the shear line is mostly just luck and trial and error right now I don't have the feedback down) and I think going to 4pins+1security at this point would just overload me.

by **digital_blue** » 27 Mar 2005 1:46

Well, the only really sound answer is that it is a feel that will only come with practice. All anyone can offer is some hints along the way. The appropriate amount of tension is this - just enough to not let the other pins drop, but not so much that you can't overcome the ridges on the security pins. That can be a tricky thing to opbtain though. But hey, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

If you feel the plug give way enough that you think it just hit the spool pin and got stuck, you are going to have to start applying upward pressure on that pin stack while gradually realeasing tension until you can push the pin stack that one step further. Too much release of tension and you end up dropping other pins.

Just another thought, you might try raking a couple times with light to medium tension first. This can often get past the security pin (if it is early in the pin order) without having to monkey with it. Though this technique works, it will not teach you anything about feeling out security pins and getting past them a pin at a time. It's just another thing to add to your bag of tricks.

db

by **vector40** » 27 Mar 2005 17:06

Mayhaps try lubricating the lock. It won't solve all the world's ails, but it could change things up enough that your luck turns.

by **Dent** » 27 Mar 2005 19:14

Ok.... THIS IS REALLY FRUSTRATING!!!!!

Can someone tell me whether security pins really don't do anthing or whether I am just a lock picking GOD???

Sorry for the caps but I am finding this really frustrating.

Ok so I was picking 2 pins with 1 spool and 3 pins with one spool with no trouble, but without understanding what is going on within the lock.

So I figure I can go for 5 total, 4+1spool, so I re-pin my lock to match my original key(incase 5 is too hard) and set to work.

Lock pop's open in 10-20 seconds with no difference...

So I move it to a different position, still pops <30 seconds.

I move it to all the positions, still pops < 30 seconds.

So I add 2, no troubles.

I add 3, then 4, and then 5 spool pins. Still picks with no troubles in under 30 seconds.

7 out of 10 picks it picks exactly like normal and I can't even detect spools, other 3 times there is a single spool caught at the shear line, so I set it, that usually causes 2 pins to unset, I set those with no problem. Still under 30 seconds.

I have only been picking for like 3 weeks and picking security since friday, so I am wondering what is going wrong?

Are spool pins really that easy to get by, am I just really talented or am I doing something wrong???

I am using a high-quality schlage mortise lock bought from Varjeal, so i don't know if quality is the problem...

Is this normal???

I guess I am off to trying out serrated....

-Dent

PS I know how this sounds, I really do not want to sound smug or bragging, because that is not how it is... I am truly wondering if I am doing something wrong because I thought it was suppose to be much harder and I'm afraid I'm missing something important.

by **stick** » 27 Mar 2005 22:14

Just to check, you're using security pins for the top pins, right?

by **Geek142** » 28 Mar 2005 2:00

Hey Dent

I am having the same thing happening to me, When i pick a lockwood 120/40 which i believe has spool pins... Is really easy to pick i even has a movie of me picking it on Zekes website and i pop it open in like 5 seconds, Its unbelievable.

Geek

by **NKT** » 29 Mar 2005 16:25

Some locks are just like that... I've got three (apparently) identical ERA locks from the same batch, two are easy, one is hard, regardless of the pinning or order.

You are probably getting the sub-concious feel for it, though.

by **hzatorsk** » 29 Mar 2005 18:43

When working with spools/shrooms/etc... I have a tendency to work one pin at a time and try to find its relative lift.

For example: Find the pin that tends to bind. Lift this carefully, feeling for the shear line (or possible spool), then... if I suspect spool in that position, I'll continue lifting for a 'snag'. I'll release tension, and relift the pin beyond the previous lift point and try from that point.

Sorta hard to explain... But I take the highest lift point of which there is a distinct feel in the plug for a given pin.

I also try lifting the pin to the highest possible position and then apply tension... followed by a scrub to attempt to drop the lower pin with stronger tension on the plug. Reraising it back up gives me the height of that pin as it tends to snag on the shear line at that point.

Although I struggle with them (my first love is combos)... both techniques are (in my opinion) decent ways to counter spools.

hzatorsk

by **NKT** » 31 Mar 2005 10:16

The obvious other question is, how hard is the key? If you are always picking to the same pattern, it is no suprise you have it perfectly down. Also, a flat key will be a lot easier than one with a lot of changes in height, especially ones with high then low pins, which are dificult to reach around once set.

Code: Select all: --- \ /--\ /-\ \-/ \ / \ \-/-\-/ \ _________________________________\

is a lot, lot harder than

Code: Select all: --- \ __ \-/ \ /-\_ \-/-\-/ \ _________________________________\

because of reaching the unset pins behind the set ones at the front. With a tight keyway, a highest-lowest can be almost impossible!

by **Dent** » 2 Apr 2005 3:57

Well the default keyway was 64332, but I have my GF randomly swap those pins around and the drivers around(orientation and also different drivers are different lengths) and then put the inner cynlinder back in so I don't know the order.(even subconsciously).

I guess I could get some 6+ and 2- pins in there, I hadn't given it too much thought....

I'm just starting to switch to serrated and had a couple more questions:

1: First, what do you do if you come to, like you said, a high/low/high type situation? What if the keyway is too restrictive to manuever a long hook in there? any other tips?

2: Do the # of serrations usually vary on a lock? I've heard reports of people using locks that each pin as 2 serrations, so they just pick until they here 3 clicks...

Is that normal or do they come random in a regular lock?

Is this a viable techique? figure out how many serrations and then just pick by counting each click?

by **Geek142** » 2 Apr 2005 6:36

Hey dent

You dont really need a tall hook to pick high/low configurations just use a normal hook, well thats what i do and it works fine with me

Geek

by **thesaint** » 17 May 2005 6:49

hi guys,
been reading the thread, not really connected but on the subject of mushroom or security pins though you might like to know that on Abus locks you usually find the mushrooms on pins 2 and 4 with the first pin very deep to keep the key strength.

Learning Security Pins

Learning Security Pins

mushroom pins on Abus locks

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