Pin lengths

[carder]

I have a few questions about pin lengths or sizes. I am a newbie and want to be able to re-key Kwikset entry locks. I have a huge set of pins that I
inherited; They are in a nice little compartmented metal box with a different size in every compartment.
When I put the new key in the cylinder and try to put the proper size pins in it to make them all flush with the sheer line I hardly, if ever, can find the right length pin. I used a micrometer to measure the length of a bunch of pins and came up with some odd measurements. I sort of expected to find sort of standard lengths that relate to the different depth cuts that a key machine can make but only some of them looked like they fit into the kind of pattern I would expect. I had readings of .250, .260
.265. but then some read .252 .242 . 239 etc. At one point I estimated I
needed one that was .258 thousandths long to make it even with the sheer
line but I couldn't find one that size.
Than brings up my second question. Most of my pins have a "very" rounded surface on one end and a "slightly" rounded end on the other end.
I presume the very rounded end is what is supposed to contact the key and the other end goes to the sheer line. In some illustrations on the net
about "learning lockpicking" the key pin and the driver pin, I think it is called. are both shown with a square end where they contact each other.
Is that the way it is supposed to be? That would make for some pretty "iffy" conditions in an older, somewhat worn lock and a worn key.
Last question. Is there a "standard" length for the driver pins? i.e. the ones that contact the springs and are these dimensions listed somewhere
along with the pin lengths?
Thanks for any help.

Carder

[digital_blue]

This might be of some help:

http://www.dlaco.com/spacing/spacing.htm

If all your pins have rounded edges it is not likely from wear as it would not be consistent among them. Some manufacturers round the inside edges of their pins to make up for sloppy manufacturing.

It is worth noting that many rekeying kits are brand specific. It is likely that the kit you have is for a particular brand of lock and thus it has the correct pin depths for that brand, not for Kwikset.

Have a look over the document I linked to and you may be able to determine if I am correct, and if so, what brand you kit is for (assuming it has no markings on it indicating such).

I hope this helps! Happy ... um... er... pin-sorting!

db

[locksmistress]

Kwikset, with its round little pins and it's big flat spots, and its (usually) round drivers and lousy spring tension is pinable within about +/- 0.007". I've pinned them 'off' by a full step because I ran out of the 'correct' pin - worked fabulously.

Also, visually, the proper pins will be about 0.010"-0.020" BELOW the shearline - not at it. Take apart a brand new Kwikset cylinder to confirm. It will not look like it should work, but it will.

Even commercial Schlage pins up just a smidgen below the shearline - otherwise the plug binds in the chamber.

[carder]

Thanks everyone. Good replies and help. I'll try all the suggestions and while I was reading them something gave me the idea that I should do some practice using just one pin installed and find out exactly what my parameters of success are using the pins I have. The kit has no identification on it so it could be lock specific. Anyway I'm having a lot of fun learning about it all and thanks again for the help.

Carder

[Varjeal]

AHHHHHHHHHrrrrrrrggg...PLEASE don't file pins EVER! ...whoever told you that filing pins is an acceptable practice was WRONG! Filing the tops of pins leads to excessive pin and chamber wear and more problems later on.

Whenver possible ALWAYS use the correct pin lengths.

Carder: From your description it sounds as if you may be measuring worn pins, or you are measuring new pins out of a .003 pin kit as opposed to a .005.

The picture showing pins with square ends is an incorrect depiction...it should show the bottom or "key" pin as having a tapered end that contacts the key.

You'll find in the FAQ section a sticky on depth and spacing for various locks. In regards to driver pins (and I'm guessing a bit here) I believe the accepted standard is about the .200 range, but it really doesn't matter as long as the spring isn't getting compressed too much.

[Peaky]

Go one Varjeal let them file the pins

[Varjeal]

NO you cannot! Please stop...pins everywhere are begging you...hehehe..

[Chucklz]

Just an addition. Filing plugs is just as, if not more evil. Same reasons as filing pins, plut the addition of severly reduced security.

[vector40]

Hey, where's Luke? Doesn't he file pins?

[Romstar]

Weeellllll......

You can file pins......BUT......BUT....

Yes, it is a big but. The amount of work required to make sure that those pins don't cause problems just doesn't make it worth it.

After filing, you have to chamfer and polish the bloody things, and if you have ever tried to hold pins steady while doing it, you realize very quickly that it's just not economical.

The only reason EVER to do this is if you absolutely have to, and then its recomended that you replace the pins as soon as you have the proper ones.

The tolerences we are talking about here cause flat headed key pins to actually cut into the cylinder walls and chew up the lock. While you can chamfer the pins with some effort, the time required is just insane. Unless you are prepared to suck that time up because you didn't have the required pins, just invest in a really good pin kit and keep it stocked.

The time required to do this properly, combined with the potential malfunction or destruction of the lock are the primary reasons why this is just a NO GO situation.

Yes, you can do it, yes it WILL work, BUT only for a while, and at a high risk.

So, avoid at all costs.
Romstar

[Romstar]

Being in the UK, you have the added problem of having a few lever packs around for different brands of locks, as well as the pin kits.

I assume that LAB is in the UK as well, and I would recomend that you look at their .003 and .005 pin kits.

Good luck,
Romstar

[MrB]

Just brainstorming here--haven't tried it--but for a quick way to chamfer pins after filing how about putting the pin in a miniature drill like this one

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?Mod ... &doy=12m5D

and spinning the corner of the pin against some sandpaper?

I can't argue with using the right size pins to start with, but if you have to file, this could be less fiddly...

[Romstar]

Nice kit, similar to a Dremel.

The problem is size. Getting the pin to seat properly in the collet of the tool isn't very likely when you are talking about a pin that might be 1.3 mm long.

When it is all said and done, there is no fast way to do it right, and any short cut will result in a pin that could damage the lock.

It sort of work out to all or nothing, and if you are going to do it all, you might as well save the frustration and just get a good kit. The exception to the rule is emergency, or some twisted hobby time. Anyone can make good pins. It just depends on how much time you spend at it.

Romstar