Schlage Primus locks

[Tim_Z]

Hello all, I have a question.

I just purchased some American padlocks (3700 and 3600) with the above cylinders in them. I understand that padlocks with $50 cylinders is a little obscene but anyway. After I got home with them I searched for info on them and discovered that the patent expires in 2007. Since after this expiration, others will be able to make key blanks what does that do to the key control? I was thinking of keying the house that I am soon (hopefully) going to purchase with the Primus level of keyway. Since the patent will expire soon, for key control should I move up to the Everest Primus level which holds a patent till 2014? I mean, I know that someone could just cut the cable/lock or kick in the door but what would you all do if you liked the idea of that system and wanted one key to operate some padlocks and your domicile? Is this a wise or foolish thing to do? And which combination of Primus or Everest Primus cylinders would you use?

Thanks for all who read my post.

Tim

P.S. Just yesterday sent my money to Foley-Belsaw to hopefully be on my way to a new part time career at first based on the discussion of the school and the advice of the locksmith who made the locks for me.

[zeke79]

There are so many sidebars for so many regions that is is unlikely that your local wal mart or even your local locksmith will stock all primus sidebars when the primus patent expires. In the event he needs to cut one key the next question is he going to be willing to order 25 or 50 of them to cut one. If you are more comfortable going everest primus then go everest primus but bear in mind that someone must first obtain your primus key to get they side bar information to duplicate it in the first place. I will personally run the primus I have on my home until they wear out or until I move. Most people have no idea what the heck they are looking at when they see a key with the word primus on the key bow anyways.

[keysman]

The question you should be asking is where you will get more keys for the cylinders you have?

The local locksmith doesn't have keys to those padlocks, so if you buy locks for your house you will need to rekey the padlocks too.

Yes the pattent runs out in 2007? , It is very unlikley that there will be any aftermarket keys with your side bar codes manufactured.
Schlage Primus is a very high quality lock, supported by one of the largest lock/ door hardware companys in the world.
You can feel safe that your locks ,keys are unduplicatable, they are probably unpickable by most "lock pickers" .

[keysman]

OOPS,
I didn't read that you bought your padlocks locally, for some reason I assumed bought them on e-bay.

[raimundo]

side bittings are too various for any shop to stock the keys, but will hpc or someone make a machine that cuts copies for these keys, following the side bitting on the key being copied, My guess is that the day will come when blanks are made for machines that copy primus, but it will be a few years after the patent expires.

[Tim_Z]

Thanks for the replies!

I was really bumming of the thought of buying into an obsolete system. But I guess I am pretty safe in that regard.

Regarding the machine to duplicate the Primus keys:

Just because the patent is in effect until 2007 does that gaurantee that no one will be designing equipment for a release just as soon as the patent expires or do you think one is presently in the works?

Again, I appreciate the piece of mind you have afforded me.

Tim

[locksmistress]

Obsolete is different from patent expiration. Obsolete is the best key control you cannot buy.

But seriously, who did you buy the Primus from? Locksmith, Distributor, Second-hand? Did the person you bought the cylinders from own the side bit or were they authorized distributors?

Do you know if you have level 1, level 1+, level 2, 3 etc?

And did you get an ID card with that?

As far as the machine to duplicate Primus keys - are you talking manufacturing blanks or making copies?

The blanks all come from the factory and Schlage has enough large, long-term clients to keep those going indefinately.

Copies of the keys - if you have the proper blank - can be made on the generic duplicators down at your local hardware store.

It's all about the blanks.

[Jimmie]

it seems with the Easy Entrie cut key machine you can copy a lot of keys

you don't need to have the right key to copy it even a single picture from the lock entry can give you a right blank

I've seen this cut key machine working recently and how amazing it is to see very difficult keys can be copied in a matter of minutes

I don't really know if this machine can copy a particular side bar for a Primus or an Assa twin but I guess so

In this way I have some doubts about the respect of the lock patent

anyway ... this key machine is not yet in every minute cut key shop !!

Jimmie

[Tim_Z]

I purchased them from a locksmith shop who is a distributer. I didn't know enough about them to request a certain level and I am unsure short of contacting them (which is impossible for the short term as I work 6 days a week- the same ones they work) how to check which level I own. Does anyone know how to check given the key number or restricted key order form?

Yes I do have an ID card which I let them file for me at the shop.

I'm just wanting to know the likelyhood of someone who somehow gets ahold of my key being able to make a working copy of it.

I believe the regular non zipcode coded keys are randomly assigned to locksmiths, correct? I mean, therer is not a certain pattern for the blank distribution?

Would the blank distribution list be something that the manufacturer would have to relenquish upon patent expiration?

Like zeke79 posted earlier about a chain store having to order lots of key blanks. Would they be able to see the key and identify the blank type to order a lot of keys?

Tim

[Tim_Z]

Also, another question:

Would you suspect the lock is assembled with all standard pins or some pick resistant pins? Would that be the difference between the level 1,1+,2,etc...?

Thanks again
Tim

[keysman]

I'm just wanting to know the likely hood of someone who somehow gets a hold of my key being able to make a working copy of it.

Assuming they don't have a Key milling machine (rare) the chances are almost "0" The dealer is still under contract to only issue keys to the registered owner, Even after the patent runs out.

So now you are dealing with someone who can manufacture a key, from a chunk of brass… it doesn’t matter at that point what make /model you have .Now we are into science fiction stuff ,and I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

I believe the regular non zip code coded keys are randomly assigned to locksmiths, correct? I mean, there is not a certain pattern for the blank distribution?

MMMM ??? I don’t know what you mean. .. there are apx 15,000 different side bar combinations, they are distributed randomly to dealers or large end users.
There are some “open keyways” that are dealer specific, meaning you as a “sub dealer “could buy blanks.

Would the blank distribution list be something that the manufacturer would have to relinquish upon patent expiration?

No, why would they? They have you as a captive customer as long as you keep those locks.

[quote=Tim_Z"]Like zeke79 posted earlier about a chain store having to order lots of key blanks. Would they be able to see the key and identify the blank type to order a lot of keys? [/quote]

Chain stores are in business to make $, buying key blanks that don’t “move “ is not cost effective. It is unlikely that they would stock “your “ side bar so they could cut a few keys just to annoy the local smiths.

Also, another question:
Would you suspect the lock is assembled with all standard pins or some pick resistant pins?

The lock comes from the factory with standard schlage pins..( Not pick resistant),
In addition to the standard pins ,there is a sidebar, with 5 special sidebar pins that must be lined up AT THE SAME TIME in order to “set”, this is what makes the lock resistant to picking or other surreptitious methods of entry.

Would that be the difference between the level 1,1+,2,etc...?

I would have to look up the specifics for each level, but …..

Mainly availability of key blanks.. level 1 ect the dealer can order them , level 2 and higher the end user can order them or has to have keys cut by the factory.

{db: Edited. Content unchanged. Addition of quote tags.}

[Tim_Z]

Thanks for that info. I was just curious about the likelyhood of those scenarios playing out. Concerning the zipcode thing- If you have a need for a large quantity of keys, Schlage can issue you your own keyway coded to your zipcode (or something to that effect).

I would guess that since the local locksmith shop issued me the locks/keys, then I have the level 1 system.

Thanks all for the perspectives.

Tim

[greyman]

Keysman wrote:

MMMM ??? I don’t know what you mean. .. there are apx 15,000 different side bar combinations, they are distributed randomly to dealers or large end users.
There are some “open keyways” that are dealer specific, meaning you as a “sub dealer “could buy blanks.

I'm interested in how the number of side-bar codes come out at around 15,000. My understanding of Primus is that there are 3 finger pin angles, so a 5 finger-pin lock would give 3*3*3*3*3=243 combinations. Bo Widen's original patent mentioned different heights for the side pins also, but I can't see how you'd come out with around 15000 overall codes. Does Schlage Primus use different heights for the finger pin cuts? I thought there was only 1 height but a differing cut offset to get the angle.

Can someone help me to understand this?

[raimundo]

Yep, there are different cut heights, you can see it on the side of the key, but I am not the primus expert, Maybe lockmisstress will chime in, she handles that system.

[Tim_Z]

Just looking at my Primus key - mine only appears to have two different levels of cut but the spacing is not uniform. ie. I have three pins in a row which is the same heigth but the peak in between the first two pins is quite high and then the peak between the second and third pins is almost non existant (because they are real close together). Does what I'm trying to explain make any sense? If not I can try and expound upon it, somehow.

Tim