picking apartment doors in the US - w/additional info

[jujawa]

My other thread got locked. I didnt realize you had to post your intentions prior to asking a question.

I am a law enforcement officer, and i am looking into carrying some picks with me on duty. I do have every right in the world to be getting into the building, and often lives are in danger, sometimes even officers that need help.

I cant tell you how frustrating it is to arrive at a backup call, or even a domestic violence call and have to sit outside the building for minutes at a time trying to dial numbers to get buzzed in because the doors are locked.

Whenever we enter a building we prop the outer door open for other responding officers, but half the time somebody coming in our out removes it. In the bad areas of the city the gangsters and local dope dealers will watch and purposely close the doors on you so that backup cant get in.

Like i said in the other post, half the time i can pick the lock with my knife, just by wiggling it around, but often times i cant, or it just takes forever. In rundown apartment buildings the outside telecoms to call up to apartments are usually broken, and we end up just standing outside waiting for someone to go in our out. Other times we risk injury by hopping the metal gates, but it would be a lot nicer to avoid all of that.

So onto my question again. If you can picture the types of locks that i am referring to, could you recommend a good set of picks, and try to educate me how to learn the skill? Will this be something that takes hours and hours of practice, or are these locks usually fairly simple. Like i said before, i can often pick them by sticking my knife inside the door and wiggling it around, so i would guess that with the proper tools it wouldnt be too hard, but i could be totally wrong.

I have been thinking about looking into this for some time now, and it only seems logical that officers should have lockpicks with them as part of their duty gear. I have never encountered an officer that had them before, but if i had success it my start a trend. I was somewhat discouraged by my welcome here, getting my first thread immediately locked, but i'm hoping for a better response now that you guys dont think i am asking these questions for illegal purposes.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Varjeal]

Be forewarned when reading this post that no sarcasm or rudeness is intented or implied. This post is strictly information and any questions posed are intended to incite reasonable discussion, not flaming. I personally have been brought up in life to have the utmost respect for what you folk do and the service you provide, so take the following as my bit to make your job easier.

I'm going to reply to your post bit by bit to make it easier to understand.

I do have every right in the world to be getting into the building, and often lives are in danger, sometimes even officers that need help.

1. If lives are in danger or officers need help, (kinda the same I guess) you don't have time to pick the lock. Take your baton/stick and smash the glass, reach in and open the door. Worry about fixing it later.

I cant tell you how frustrating it is to arrive at a backup call, or even a domestic violence call and have to sit outside the building for minutes at a time trying to dial numbers to get buzzed in because the doors are locked.

2. Doesn't sound like an emergency, so it sounds like your following the proper procedure as you should. If you arrive on site and realize the buzzer is busted, phone a locksmith to meet you there. Some guys specialize in that area.

Whenever we enter a building we prop the outer door open for other responding officers, but half the time somebody coming in our out removes it. In the bad areas of the city the gangsters and local dope dealers will watch and purposely close the doors on you so that backup cant get in.

3. I don't claim to know jack-all about police procedure, but shouldn't someone be outside or by the front door to watch the front?

In rundown apartment buildings the outside telecoms to call up to apartments are usually broken, and we end up just standing outside waiting for someone to go in our out. Other times we risk injury by hopping the metal gates, but it would be a lot nicer to avoid all of that.

4. Call a locksmith. We're fast, efficient, and experts at NDE....or should be. I realize it may seem more convenient to pick the lock, but if you really have that much time, calling a pro will just make your job that much easier.

If you can picture the types of locks that i am referring to, could you recommend a good set of picks, and try to educate me how to learn the skill? Will this be something that takes hours and hours of practice, or are these locks usually fairly simple.

5. As you browse through this site using the search feature, and by especially reading through the FAQ's located in the top forum, you'll come across excellent recommendations for types of picksets. Be aware that in more "upper-class" buildings, higher security locks may be used that will simply be completely beyond your skills to pick, then what? Becoming proficient at lock picking is really an "art" that takes a great deal of time and practice to become successful at. This whole site is dedicated to the very purpose of educating and teaching people how to pick locks.

I have been thinking about looking into this for some time now, and it only seems logical that officers should have lockpicks with them as part of their duty gear. I have never encountered an officer that had them before, but if i had success it my start a trend.

6. Actually, it's not really that logical for enforcement officers to carry picks as part of duty gear. In how many situations do you personally want to quietly and without notice perform your tasks? Also, do you think that the additional weight of a pickset is worthwhile? You folk must pack about 20lbs of it already.

Understand this is just my opinion, but if a particular situation is dangerous and sensitive enough to call for such tactics, it would be best to call in trained professionals (SWAT, a locksmith, or whoever) who have actually taken specific training for such situations.

Understand also that I'm not trying to deter you from learning lockpicking for a sporting purpose, that's what we're here for.

As a trading professional locksmith, however, I find the idea of law enforcement officers carrying picks rather disturbing in the fact that some (not necessarily you) officers open vehicles in non-emergency situations that a locksmith such as myself relies on to pay the bills and feed the kids, and allowing officers to carry pick tools now opens up the possibility for them to open homes and other locks as well, and that doesn't seem right to me. Also, what happens when an enforcement officer in an emergency (trying to pick an apartment lock for example) breaks a pick off in the lock or otherwise damages it? (May seem unlikely, but in high-stress situations as you most likely know very possible). Suddenly your only option is either to break down the door (which in an emergency should have been done anyways) or a locksmith will need to be called to repair the lock. This to me would be a dangerous trend.

I do encourage you to enjoy the site and take the information presented for what it's worth. Our site sponsor at the flashing link on left is a good place to start for a pickset, and there are available online manuals, etc. to guide in your journey.

Hope that helps.

[raimundo]

I have seen this happen in large multi apartment buildings, the front door is opened for the officers, who go in then more officers arrive and are locked out. Heres a solution that will work some of the time and you can think about how to make it work on other applications, get a lid from a tin can, and a tinsnips, or get a tear off aluminum lid from some chip dip or cat food, and you will be able to cut it with an old sicissors (cant spell that)
cut out a piece from the center of the lid where the metal is flat, it should be in the form of a cross + with one line longer, the longer part should be as wide as the average strike plate hole, and the shorter cross should be wider. You might have to deburr this piece to carry it flat in your wallet. When you come to a call where you want to leave the door open for the next responders, (or also very handy when moving and using the door a lot) take out the cross of metal, and bend the two long ends and push them into the strike plate hole, while the wider part just caps and bridges over the hole, so that the door can shut normally but the strike hole is capped and the snapbolt will not enter the strike hole. This may require some modification such as recurving the long ends to grip the underside of the strike hole, or just keep a piece of tape with it to fix it on. there are other modifications that can be made to make the parts that stick into the strike hole press fit, I have made them in variations, but the thing fits flat in the wallet, not like a wine bottle cork that can also be forced into a strike hole. for the kind of snaplatches on panic hardware, you will need a different strip of metal that can be bent over the round strike grip, figure it out yourself, but the whole idea is that it can be kept flat in a wallet until used. I have shown this to minneapolis cops, and they give me a stupid look, I don't think they feel the need for it. but I have seen them haveing the problem. It should also be useful to para medics, Firemen have their own protocols that seem to work well for them, and they have axes.

[zekeo]

I agree with a lot of Varjeal's concerns. A more obvious answer is that if picking were a useful skill for law-enforcement officers to have, you would have been taught it in acadamy or in later training. You are only allowed to enter buildings or apartments in emergency situations of when you have a warrant. When you have a warrant, you can easily bring along a locksmith. In an emergency BREAK DOWN THE DOOR. Lockpicking is not consistent enough to rely on in these situations. Even an easy lock can unexpectedly take minutes rather than seconds because of wear, an especially difficult pin configuration, etc.

I'm glad police officers do not carry picks. There would be too much temptation to just check out someone's place in an investigation, and no one would be the wiser (we all know realistically that police bend the rules sometimes).

[jujawa]

Thanks for a good reply, that actually does help a lot and is exactly what i was looking for. My impression of picking locks from movies, tv, etc, is obviously way off, and your impressions of police work is probably misinformed from the media as well. I'll respond to your points and maybe you can point me in a good direction if i do attempt to take up the trade.

1. I definately did not realize how long it would take to pick a lock. I figured if i had the picks handy it would definately be less time than finding a good place to climb the fence. Does it usually take seconds or minutes to pick these types of locks? Now, your suggestion of smashing the glass to open the door is out of the question usually. Im talking about large rod iron gates surrounding an apartment building. Even if there was glass available, breaking glass to enter is generally impractical. If we smashed windows for every code 3 domestic violence, adw, etc. we would spend our entire shift doing paperwork for the busted windows rather than handling radio calls and arresting bad guys. A door kick, window smash, etc. is hours of paperwork and investigation after the incident, which makes it unreasonable unless there are exigent circumstances. 911 radio call are not those circumstances as that is a commonplace, everyday call. Now, for a true officer needs help call, it would be an idea to smash a window, but nontheless its probably a lot more trouble than its worth. It announces your presence and kills the element of surprise, and would run an even higher risk of injury to responding officers from the broken glass window than just finding a way to hop the gate.

2. With regards to sitting outside waiting for someone to answer... i guess it depends on whose perspective you're coming from as to whether or not its an emergency. If you're the victim, then obviously it is high priority, if you are the officer you have many other considerations. Phoning a locksmith is out of the question. First of all, the city wont pay for it, and secondly, that is way too much time. Do locksmiths work 24 hrs btw? I would imagine some do, i just dont really know. I work morning watch, 6pm to 6:45am, so that would be important.

3. Nobody guards the door to watch the front. If we had unlimited funding and could afford 10 or 20 thousand more officers on top of the approximately 10 thousand we currently have, we might have enough for something like that. But, its not even feasible, especially in my department which is by far the most understaffed of all big cities in the US. Despite that, we have the best tactics training in the country and make up for our lack of numbers with good tactics. Unfortunately, using an officer to cover the front is not an option. You never split up from your partner, and you likely wont have any additional units responding unless you have a verified violent crime, combative suspects, or additional outstanding suspects, in which case officers are responding to the general area, not your specific location. This means that you and your partner will both be going inside together, leaving nobody to cover the front.

4. Again, calling a locksmith is not practical for police work. Time and money are the main issues. It is highly unlikely that a locksmith will respond before somebody comes in or out of the building and opens the door for us.

5. I read through a lot of the FAQ's before posting, and did searches for apartment locks, etc, and didnt find the answer i was looking for. Maybe if i knew what type of locks are usually used on these outer gates. Do you know what they are called so that i could search for that? And yes, i figured the upper-class buildings would probably have unpickable locks. If i try and fail, what have i lost? Meanwhile my partner will be looking for an alternate route into the building. Also, upper class buildings usually have 24 hr security guards, and their telecoms usually work, which makes things much easier. But either way, I go into upper-class buildings maybe once a month. I go into the ghetto dozens of times a night. I doubt you'd ever want to voluntarily venture into these types of places, but if you're ever in the area on business, check out the gates on the outsides of these rundown apartment buildings, the locks are really horrible.

6. I think it may not be logical or practical now that i've read what you wrote, which is exactly why i searched for lockpick forums and signed up here; so that i could find out whether or not it would be worthwhile. To answer your question, quietly and efficiently entering a building would be amazing, especially for plain clothes observation and surveillance work, when narcotics dealers have lookouts placed throughout a complex. Even on patrol, if i could pick a cheap apartment gate in less than two or three minutes, i would use that skill a good half a dozen times a night and i'd get tons of praise from fellow officers for being able to do it. I already get a lot of amazement at how well i can pick them with my knife, and other officers find it extremely useful.

To answer your other question, having the additional weight would depend entirely upon how easy or difficult it was to pick the locks, and how often i was successful. If it was a rarety then no it wouldnt be worth it, however if it was a high percentage of success, then it would be well worthwhile. The average officer carries approximately 40 lbs of gear on duty. How much does a normal set of lockpicks weigh? I'd have to hold and feel a set to really know the practicality of carrying them on duty.

As for your statement about using other resources if the situation is dangerous and sensitive enough to call for such tactics... well, that's what we do, that's our job. Many people dont really realize how dangerous the job is, especially in certain cities. My mother was shocked when i told her that i draw my firearm several times every shift. This was after i had been working for some time. I dont know what she thought i did out there, but its a dangerous world. Responding to an assault with a deadly weapon call, shooting in progress, home invasion rape, armed robbery, domestic violence, etc, is a routine occurrence that happens every night. Its not a SWAT callout. SWAT responds to violent armed, barricaded suspects. That's it. A husband shooting his wife is just another radio call, nothing special. But at the same time it would be nice to have a better way inside the building than fiddling with the telecom thing until we can get it to work. Maybe that is shocking to most people, but that's the real world. I dont mean to sound like a jerk, but hey at least i am here on the forums trying to find a better way. Most officers bright idea is to stand at the gate and call the victim to buzz us up. As if a victim will be able to do that while bleeding out from a gun shot wound. Luckily, most of the time the radio call is not as serious as it could have been and everybody is okay.

I am a little unclear as to why you are concerned with officers carrying lockpicks. I'm not talking about carrying a slim jim to open a car door for someone that locked their keys inside a vehicle. We have a lot more important things to respond to, and in that case i would tell them to call a locksmith, that's their job. As to your example of breaking off a pick in the lock during an emergency... well, if our options are attempting to pick the lock and taking the risk of it breaking off, or standing by for 5-10 mins for additional officers to respond with the 100 lb two man battering ram to knock down the gate, well i think it would be worthwhile to attempt to pick the lock.

In closing, thanks for your post, it was helpful and informative. I realize that it may be altogether impractical to even have a set of picks. I really dont have any use for picking locks outside of work, so i wouldnt try it unless i thought it could be used effectively as an officer.

I think my main two questions that i still have are: 1) How much practice would it take to become proficient picking the locks i have described? and 2) Once proficient, how much time would it actually take to pick the lock (1 min, 5 mins, 10 mins, etc)?

Thanks again for the help.

[jujawa]

Zekeo-

Our academy is 7 months, and in that time you barely learn the basics of police work. This is why we have ongoing in-service training. Even after the academy your first year in the field you feel like you know absolutely nothing. There is so much to learn that all we get is the basics. If you want to become a better officer, its up to you to do it yourself, which is why i am looking into lockpicks in the first place.

Also, you are misinformed as to what a search warrant is and when its needed. We can enter an apartment complex any time that we want, for routine patrol, for observation, whatever. We can only enter someone's home if we have a radio call, unless it is an anonymous caller. But basically, if we have a radio call, we're coming in. We dont need warrants, that is a common misconception from movies.

Again, i dont think you realize what breaking down a door entails. I am talking about the outer metal gates to the complex itself, not the doors to people's apartments. These are metal gates. You cant kick them, and if you could you would need supervisor approval anyways. You cant get that until you have a verified crime and an articulable reason why you need to immediately break down the door (ie. there is a confirmed suspect inside the location with a victim). Well, how can i have a verified crime when i havent even entered the complex yet? See what i'm getting at?

We have many, many code 3, high priority radio calls that sound important on the radio, "domestic violence shooting just occurred, victim down at location", etc... but in reality very few are actually what the call came out as. Like i said in my last post, if we kicked and smashed doors for these calls every time we couldnt get into the outer apt complex gate we'd spend our entire shift doing paper work and never doing police work.

Lastly, i'm not sure what you mean by "temptation to just check out someone's place in an investigation". If we're conducting an investigation at a certain location then it is our job to "check out" the place. We are supposed to look for evidence, witnesses, suspects, victims, and anything else that could help prove or disprove a crime. That is what the citizens of the city pay us to do, so that's not really a temptation, its a necessity. And if you mean picking the lock of a random apartment just out of curiousity then i'd have to say you are mistaken in your worry. That is not a temptation. No officer that i know or have ever met would risk their job to get a peak at a smelly, craphole apartment, the likes of which we have all seen thousands of, and will probably get a chance to see in the future if we work the area long enough. No, honestly, there is no temptation to go into someone's house. We are constantly on the move from one call to the next, and when we're at each call, we are usually set on getting it handled and safe as quickly as possible so we can move on the to next. Sticking around the area and snooping for no reason doesnt really cross our mind, especially when we know that it would cost us our job if we went into someone's house for no reason at all. If we arent handling radio calls, we're eating or arresting narco dealers, etc, not snooping peoples apartments.

[Varjeal]

Thanks for a good reply, that actually does help a lot and is exactly what i was looking for. My impression of picking locks from movies, tv, etc, is obviously way off, and your impressions of police work is probably misinformed from the media as well. I'll respond to your points and maybe you can point me in a good direction if i do attempt to take up the trade.

Hehehe..well..I guess we're both a bit silly. I'm neither American nor a police officer so that explains my wild misconceptions...I appreciate the heads up on that.

Lockpicking is a particular skillset that requires a fair amount of practice and patience, especially under stress. As much as the movies try to make out picking as a simple process of inserting a tool and twisting, it's extremely rare it's that easy. From your description the standard locks, (called "mortise cylinders") you will come across will be the standard variety of 5-6 pin tumbler, and most likely it extremely poor condition. Any standard lockpick set will do you fine. I would suggest a 7 or 9 piece set with a good variety of tension tools and I would also add in a small plain screwdriver and a Rytan plug spinner (http://www.rytan.com/cgi-bin/detail.php?pn=RY5798).

1. I definately did not realize how long it would take to pick a lock. I figured if i had the picks handy it would definately be less time than finding a good place to climb the fence. Does it usually take seconds or minutes to pick these types of locks?

Depending on the condition of the lock, door, and associated hardware it could be anywhere from mere seconds to many minutes. A skilled user normally with locks, etc. in good condition should be able to open it in under 2 minutes easily.

Now, your suggestion of smashing the glass to open the door is out of the question usually. Im talking about large rod iron gates surrounding an apartment building. Even if there was glass available, breaking glass to enter is generally impractical. If we smashed windows for every code 3 domestic violence, adw, etc. we would spend our entire shift doing paperwork for the busted windows rather than handling radio calls and arresting bad guys. A door kick, window smash, etc. is hours of paperwork and investigation after the incident, which makes it unreasonable unless there are exigent circumstances. 911 radio call are not those circumstances as that is a commonplace, everyday call.

Understood.

2. With regards to sitting outside waiting for someone to answer... i guess it depends on whose perspective you're coming from as to whether or not its an emergency. If you're the victim, then obviously it is high priority, if you are the officer you have many other considerations. Phoning a locksmith is out of the question. First of all, the city wont pay for it, and secondly, that is way too much time. Do locksmiths work 24 hrs btw? I would imagine some do, i just dont really know. I work morning watch, 6pm to 6:45am, so that would be important.

I can guarantee if your in a city of any size you'd be able to find someone to come out. Some do 24hr calls and some won't, but a simple call around would tell you what you need to know.

3. Nobody guards the door to watch the front. If we had unlimited funding and could afford 10 or 20 thousand more officers on top of the approximately 10 thousand we currently have, we might have enough for something like that. But, its not even feasible, especially in my department which is by far the most understaffed of all big cities in the US. Despite that, we have the best tactics training in the country and make up for our lack of numbers with good tactics. Unfortunately, using an officer to cover the front is not an option. You never split up from your partner, and you likely wont have any additional units responding unless you have a verified violent crime, combative suspects, or additional outstanding suspects, in which case officers are responding to the general area, not your specific location. This means that you and your partner will both be going inside together, leaving nobody to cover the front.

Understood.

4. Again, calling a locksmith is not practical for police work. Time and money are the main issues. It is highly unlikely that a locksmith will respond before somebody comes in or out of the building and opens the door for us.

Alright.

6. I think it may not be logical or practical now that i've read what you wrote, which is exactly why i searched for lockpick forums and signed up here; so that i could find out whether or not it would be worthwhile. To answer your question, quietly and efficiently entering a building would be amazing, especially for plain clothes observation and surveillance work, when narcotics dealers have lookouts placed throughout a complex. Even on patrol, if i could pick a cheap apartment gate in less than two or three minutes, i would use that skill a good half a dozen times a night and i'd get tons of praise from fellow officers for being able to do it. I already get a lot of amazement at how well i can pick them with my knife, and other officers find it extremely useful.

Sounds like your department needs a pro to come in and train your officers on what to do in regards to picking. Since it's unlikely your department would pay for it, maybe you could find a local helpful lockie to give your guys some instruction off-duty. You'll also have to check with your state laws, etc. to make sure you don't need a specific license, etc. to carry such tools. I know it sounds silly, but it's best to cover your butt incase something goes wrong and you get sued or caught with tools. Of course you've probably done it already, but you'll want to check with your boss' to make sure that carrying picks on-duty is allowable within company policy.

I am a little unclear as to why you are concerned with officers carrying lockpicks. I'm not talking about carrying a slim jim to open a car door for someone that locked their keys inside a vehicle. We have a lot more important things to respond to, and in that case i would tell them to call a locksmith, that's their job. As to your example of breaking off a pick in the lock during an emergency... well, if our options are attempting to pick the lock and taking the risk of it breaking off, or standing by for 5-10 mins for additional officers to respond with the 100 lb two man battering ram to knock down the gate, well i think it would be worthwhile to attempt to pick the lock.

My concern is that not all law officers are like you seem to be. Some would take the opportunity to use them whenever the situation arose with little regard as to the ramifications, and THAT is what concerns me. Your example of the slim jim is a good one. I have on several occasions (when working in a different area) to remove tools that officers have gotten stuck in doors trying to help someone out. Eventually it lead to the particular department cracking down on it. In those non-emergency situations, it results in someone virtually stealing money out of my pocket.

Your concerns seem legitimate, and thus I've offered the advice I have. I would highly recommend (even if it's at your own cost) to hire a locksmith for a week of evenings to give you and some of your fellow officers instruction on how to do so. Scour this site, especially the pick-fu forum on techniques and tips on how to pick general pin tumbler cylinders, most will apply in your case.

Picking tools are not bulky in terms of size/weight, but they are an added item on your belt.

In terms of time to learn, if you dedicate yourself to an hour every other day, you should be proficient in less than a year for the standard locks you will find. This process can be easily shortened by application of the practices found on this site, and even more by hands-on instruction from a skilled picker. Times under 5 minutes will become common.

[GingerTouch]

I may be way off on my assumptions, but I think you would be well served in getting a small starter set. Probably a 5 peice or along those lines. And also search the web for the MIT guide to lockpicking for info on the internal workings of basic locks.
As for the time it takes to learn, I think this is more of a life long "path" if you will. Once you become proficient at it locks can vary greatly in the amount of time to open. Even the same lock can vary each time you pick it.
I beleive, as you have mentioned your lack of time and large ammount of law enforcement training you are in, that it may be impractical to devote the required time needed to become very good at this.

[zekeo]

Thanks for your reply. I see what you mean about training, I guess I thought that the proper way to learn would be through your dept. with the approval of your higher-ups. It sounds like Varjeal's idea of having a lockie come out and train a few people would be the best bet.

I know you don't need a warrant to go into an apartment building, or into an apartment from which you received a call. You do, however, need one to get into a locked apartment (unless you get permission from the resident or are in hot pursuit). I didn't get this from the movies, but from working with criminal defense attorneys. I wasn't implying that all cops overstep their bounds, but that adding one more tool to police power just makes me a little nervous.

That being said, it sounds like it would be useful for you to learn how to pick the specific locks that are on these gates, especailly if they're all similar. It might even be better to get a snap gun or electric pick. Next time you're out, get a good description of the locks you usually deal with, better yet take a digi cam and post a picture. The many knowledgeable people on this site will more than likely be able to reccomend the best option.

[pip]

.

as i follow this thread
i'll be wearing my rubber boots

[toomush2drink]

Why not just get a pick gun of the snap kind, not heavy and will get quick results.

[Chrispy]

Bloody good idea toomush. Jujawa, if you want to get past a lock, get a snap gun. It will probably be kind of uncomfortable to carry (might need its own holster ) but it will be faster, easier and less.... fumbly ( )... than bending down in front of a lock trying to lift individual pins.

If you start picking locks for your own enjoyment and fulfillment (as we do ) you will get better and eventually be able to open most locks with a standard pick set, not a gun. Then you can try to open locks when you are on duty and have a lot more success than you would if you tried as a beginner.

If you can't open it with a pick gun, chances are you won't be able to open it with a pick set, unless you are an experienced lock picker.

As we don't know everything about what you go through in your duties, we wish you the best of luck and hope that we can provide a solution for you. Welcome to LP101.

[rayman452]

I dare say ....THERMITE!!!!!


but yea, a snap gun would work best, fast, effecient, and easy to learn/use. It could be made into an attachment for the gun...

[Varjeal]

# of days since Thermite was mentioned:



0

[master in training]

yeah... i came up with an idea the other day to put that word in the filter, something funny like "YOU CANT SAY THAT WORD!!!"

rayman, anyone would think you liked the word!