Letter to the Locksmith Community

[Romstar]

Just to clarify, it was Varjeal and myself that were banned from I-L.

The admins on I-L were scared because these people believe that there is something wrong with teaching people how to pick locks. They believe WRONGLY that Varjeal or I were providing sensative information gatherred from I-L to members here at LP101.

I can say without reservation that with a few exceptions I am most likely better at my job, and know more about it than the majority of the I-L membership. ESPECIALLY when it comes to picking, impressioning and general bypass techniques. I am NOT by trade a safe man, so there is one exception.

Don O'Shall is an excellent locksmith, and his book(s) (I think there is more than 1) are excellent. I still have one on IC cores)

Despite there seeming to be a personal issue between myself and John Truempy, I still have a great respect for his skills as a locksmith.

Some of them actually believe that it is wrong or illegal for us to sell lock picks to other members, ESPECIALLY if it is outside of our own country. I think some of them actually think it may be illegal (It isn't of course).

Despite what they said at the time, it WAS a knee jerk reaction.

The worst part is that some of our members from here who were also members on I-L completely turned their backs on us, and some of them renounced us while not mentioning their association with LP101.

It was a witch hunt then, and it is still. Currently, Don O'Shall has a fomal complaint before the ALOA concerning Marc Tobias' membership.

Marc Tobias! The author of LSS, and a recognized authority by police and investigative professionals. Apparently, despite his overwhelming knowledge on the subject, and his continuing efforts to IMPROVE security in the industry, some locksmiths consider him a threat.

Never mind their overwhelming denouncement of Matt Blaze and his works. Never mind that everything Blaze has done is either a retake on public knowledge, or easily discovered through personal investigation.

I am not perfect, and I do forget things, or I sometimes encounter something I have not dealt with before, and that resource is now closed to me. I get by however, and take no small pleasure in watching some of OUR members go into the locksmithing trade with an open and exploring mind.

Romstar

[mr curious]

there isn't really anything i can say that hasn't allready been said but its a
sad state of affairs when people can be so petty.

this site holds the future of locksmithing and non destructive entry and i for one am very gratefull to everyone here.

all of the people i have encountered here have been good people, only looking to help and benefit others and if the other forum can't see that
then it just show what kind of selfish narow minded individuals they are.

[thertel]

Well all I can say is that this upsets me on many levels, the strongest of which is that I know these people to be upstanding members of the forum and Romstar in particular I have spent countless hours talking to and learning from. Well I'm just gonna say one last thing on this...

Well if ignorance is bliss the mods from I-L are in heaven.

Thomas

[Luke]

I'll be honest... I do not think highly of any of the I-L moderators... Dan from Canada was one of the nicest men there, but then he turned... I asked a locksmith the other day why locksmithing/picking information should be restricted because of the skills required etc... he answered with something that sounded like it was quoted from a book... and he then said he would not share information... I-L has made bad choices... in my opinion they can go rot.... Enjoy your selves IL because i know i laugh at you guys when i think about how conservative and nieve you are

[Luke]

Oh, yeah, Frank i agree, alot of the locksmiths here would be better at their job than those on I-L, but ofcourse, we are all criminals and should not belong to the security industry.

[ondrovic]

i would like to thank everyone from this site for all the information that has been provided. Because of this site ( and the great members who are willing to help out ) I have just took a postion as a locksmith apprentice. It started as a hobby for me about a year ago and I recently want to change professions ( dont want to hijack this post lol ). So a big thanks and I will share any knowledge that I learn with everyone in this fine community.

Thanks,
Chris Ondrovic

[HeadHunterCEO]

i would like to thank everyone from this site for all the information that has been provided. Because of this site ( and the great members who are willing to help out ) I have just took a postion as a locksmith apprentice. It started as a hobby for me about a year ago and I recently want to change professions ( dont want to hijack this post lol ). So a big thanks and I will share any knowledge that I learn with everyone in this fine community.

Thanks,
Chris Ondrovic

what region are you operating in chris?
good luck

[fixer]

I would like to equate locksmithing and physical security to computer security.

As a sysadmin and network security engineer, I spent my time trying to improve the security of my servers and network. The knowledge I got from information shared over the internet in the most part assisted this task.

As a locksmith, I found it very difficult to get some of the information I needed to complete a simple task. The manufacturers and my peers treat the information as confidential. This is called

security by obscurity

and as was discovered in the electronic world, it doesn't work.

As an example, the automotive manufacturers are trying to keep locksmiths from working on vehicles by password protecting the ECU's and only giving out that information to registered dealerships. Not only does this hurt locksmiths, but the independant mechanics are unable to work on these engines.

The only bright side to this is that I see Microsoft trying to get involved in vehicle electronics Just think, you go to start your car and the windows roll down or you stop at a signal and you have to turn off the engine, disconnect the battery, connect it back up and re-start the car to continue.

p.s. I hate M$

[ondrovic]

what region are you operating in chris?

I will be operating the the south east region ( gerogia and upper florida most likely )

[Mad Mick]

An old one, but still funny:
http://www.vbrad.com/pf.asp?p=Misc/hum_ms_cars.htm
Did Gates ever reply to this?

[Sonodora]

It's interesting to note all this talk about (some) locksmiths trying to keep knowledge from being spread around, trying to keep others from getting involved. I've been involved in amateur photography for many years, and have made a few bucks on the side doing portraits. Many professional photographers are really down on these amateurs "that take their work away, and lower prices" by doing photography relatively cheaply (and, perhaps, without some of the hassles encountered when dealing with some professional photographers).

On the other hand, quite a few professional photographers give unstintingly of their time and expertise to help everybody, including amateurs, but also even their professional competitors. I think that photography, whether on the amateur level or the professional level, has been greatly helped by such unselfish efforts. So, I suppose, the security professions in general and locksmithing in particular will be greatly helped by some openness and sharing. My guess is that it's mainly a personality thing - there are those that thrive on secrecy and trying to keep everything to themselves and their buddies, and others that thrive on helping others.

My suggestion is that we generally ignore the naysayers - I think the open approach will eventually blow right on by them. Of course if we have opportunity to correct some particularly egregious injustice, then we ought to do it, but in general I think if we just continue sharing and helping and encouraging, the naysayers will not be able to cause much trouble, IMHO.

[toothpaste100]

This seems like a great, friendly, knowledgable forum and I am thankful that this forum isn't trying to be run like the free masons or something. Screw facism!

[graph]

Don't believe the hype - The driving force for all "secrecy, confidentiality...etc." with the veiled explanations of morality and legality, is the bottom line - money.

[fixer]

Don't believe the hype - The driving force for all "secrecy, confidentiality...etc." with the veiled explanations of morality and legality, is the bottom line - money.

While some of the incentive may be money, I think the majority is just conservative inertia.

For years, locksmithing was an art handed down from father to son/apprentice. Now the basic skills can be learned in colleges and mail-order courses. On-line resources are a valuable tool for all people.

Previous to joining LP101, if I had come across a 'bilock' or something from outside the USA and UK (places I have lived) then I wouldn't know the first thing about them. Now, I have a general idea about that lock system. I certainly know where I could come and ask more questions.

While I may be a locksmith, I certainly don't know everything and am more than happy to take advice from anyone who knows more than I do, even if they are not a locksmith.

[yippeegollies]

WOW! The more things change, the more they stay the same. All of these posts are saying the same things that I heard 35 years ago when I first started as an apprentice. Fortunately there are always a few generous souls willing to share information with people eager to learn.

It's been my experience that the shady types don't have the patience or dedication to become good enough to pose a serious security threat. The more serious eager beavers more often than not, eventualy end up getting jobs in the industry. What starts off as a hobby, becomes a career.

This is a great site. Kudos to all the members.

Yip