bumping proof?

by **kennylt** » 18 Jun 2005 3:27

i resently saw a "130 phisical security pt1" and was amazed at how easy it was to open a new, very expensive lock.
but i think there can be an easy solution to this as the key is heald only by the sholder so it wouldnt enter the lock too deep
so what if there was another barier inside the lock? or atleast a mechanism instead if that barier witch would jam the lock case its entered too deep.
here is the idea in flash

:
http://img92.echo.cx/img92/4589/bumping7np.swf
(download it with "save as" so you could change the boarders as the text doesnt fit the window in places

)

by **capt.dunc** » 18 Jun 2005 5:13

you could get round this by cutting the bump key profile a fraction nearer the tip and bumping the key to the correct depth.

by **Chrispy** » 18 Jun 2005 6:16

Whereabouts would I be able to get Shockwave to view this file?

by **Jimmie** » 18 Jun 2005 10:11

and ... you can add a muffler on the bump key bow near the shoulder ...

electric ties, silicon, hot glue, rubber bands etc ....

Jimmie

by **stick** » 18 Jun 2005 12:48

www.shockwave.com :roll:

by **Chrispy** » 18 Jun 2005 22:50

Thanks.

by **hzatorsk** » 19 Jun 2005 9:22

capt.dunc wrote:you could get round this by cutting the bump key profile a fraction nearer the tip and bumping the key to the correct depth.

capt.dunc is correct... In fact, because the key bottoms out in some the keyways, it is common practice to remove a fraction from the tip as well.

While I am certainly no expert at bumping... I suspect the best protection against it is going to be one or more of:

1) sidebar locks with some sort of pin engagement where the pins must be rotated (Medeco/Corbin) or otherwise manipulated beyond a simply lifting.

2) One or more pins or retraction levels on a different axis that resists bump. Such as in the back of the lock that detects key depth or perhaps a specific notch cut into the side of the key to identify the key. (Schlage)

3) Controlled key blanks. (limiting ability to make bump keys)

4) Perhaps an inertia pin that isn't available in the keyway that purposely blocks the cylinder when it is bumped.

5) Alternating strong and weak springs that cause the some pins to bump successfully at a different amount of smack than required for the other pins.

6) A Cam/pin/ratchet actuator that requires the lock to be turned back and forth through the center (key removal) position twice before it will turn far enough in either direction to open/close the lock. Imagine instead of a pin, that you have the equivalent of a ball point pen actuator instead of a normal pin in one position and the 'pin' must be set by turning the key 20 degrees back and forth before the lock will open.

7) Plug sieze pins. Imagine that you successfully bumped the lock (or picked it) and turned the plug... At 20 degress left and right another pinstack attempts to push a ratcheted top pin down into the plug and permanately siezes the plug requiring disassembly (or a magnetic key) to resolve. Only a correct key will hold the sieze pin out of the plug whereas picks and bump keys will let the sieze pin fall.

...sorry... I don't have flash demonstrations of these ideas

hz

by **kennylt** » 19 Jun 2005 13:49

hm cut the tip ... i had that idea its just that they dont mention it when they talk about bumping

anyway what if the lock had a mechanism whitch would jam the lock case its bumped in the barier or in the place the sholderis? and the lock would look just like an ordinary one so the intruder wouldnt notice the diference and when he hammers ...

Code: Select all: idea is something like this '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''| <-- outside part of the lock ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,| ,,, | | / | <-- midle part of the lock | \______________________________.| |______| _|___| _|___| _|__|| <--- mooving jamer partwhen bumped ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''| <--, gets into the wrong share line _______|_ |_____|_ |_____|_ |_____| | the real share line /\ /\ /\ | | | pin pin pin (the jaming "spikes" can be in allmost any hight above the share line)

this i think could work as the mooving jamer part could be easily made to look like a protection against drilling from the outside

by **hzatorsk** » 19 Jun 2005 14:14

I am not sure what your picture is trying to show?!? But, I think you are missing the point of bumping... the plug itself really doesn't move back or up... (well... not significantly). Bumping is best effected when the energy goes to the pins not the plug. Impact upwards on the lower pin kicks the upper pin upwards.

Any contraption to attempt to block pins from traveling during a bump should not expect the plug moving in the cylinder in order to operate... it also means that if it is somehow acted upon by the key, that the key could be shaved to avoid it.

by **kennylt** » 20 Jun 2005 3:03

i know what moves and what doesnt

what i mean is to add something that couldnt be recognised from otside, but would jam the lock in case the key is inserted too deep and you would have to open the lock from the other side or break the dor to fix it or something...

by **vector40** » 20 Jun 2005 6:55

Sounds like a really easy way to end up calling a locksmith to FIX the door.

by **pun1sher** » 20 Jun 2005 7:18

hehe

by **hzatorsk** » 20 Jun 2005 8:45

kennylt wrote:i know what moves and what doesnt
what i mean is to add something that couldnt be recognised from otside, but would jam the lock in case the key is inserted too deep and you would have to open the lock from the other side or break the dor to fix it or something...

Sorry... didn't mean it the way! ...just clarifying we were on the same page.

But... bumping doesn't insert the key 'too deep'. The key is cut so that it is slightly shallow by removing the tip and shoulder.

While I like the idea of a 'denial of service' for a deep (longer) key and even suggested a DOS with my plug seize pins in an earlier post.... I am not too sure about a lock seizing up simply because the key penetrated too deep (like a 1/32"). Even legitimate key duplications sometimes are off by more than a 'bump' requires to move.

Have you ever had to pull a key back a tiny amount in order for it to operate?

by **kennylt** » 20 Jun 2005 13:10

well yeah i had to pull out a key a little bit out to operate a lock .. but it was very very old

and isnt there quite a big amount of force being produced on the place where the sholder meats the lock? they said that it can even break a lock so this can be used cant it?

( i want to beat the bumping system, i wount give up until i do something

)

by **kennylt** » 20 Jun 2005 13:48

4) Perhaps an inertia pin that isn't available in the keyway that purposely blocks the cylinder when it is bumped.

this idea sound realy great

atleast sounds simpl enough

bumping proof?

bumping proof?

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