question for uk lockies

[capt.dunc]

i've got a client who wants to get their thumb turn euro changed to a double sided key euro, but it's the only door in and out of the property. if i change it am i breaking the law? or is it the landlord who'll be at fault in the event of a fire?

[quicklocks]

hi
i dont think you will be breaking the "law" but if the property is rented then you should contact the lanlord and check with them as the lock you will be removing does belong to him/her. although i know fire officers like thumb turns.
you may be able to argue the point for the change if it is a securty risk eg right next to a post box ect.
i would aslo phone the fire brigade and ask for their advice, tell them the situation they will be happy to help. they will also clear up the law issue
hope ive helped and not muddyed up the water to much.
ps dont ring 999
there will be a number for the fire officer in the yeloow pages

[capt.dunc]

ah, i was thinking of the building (scotland) act 2003, section 2.9.5. it states that in a building of flats or apartments, if a door is to be securable across a fire escape route, then it must be openable without a key from the side of an escaping person in the event of a fire.
not aplicable in england and wales then?
ps scotland has about double the fatality rate (per head of population) from fire of england.

[EvoRed]

Why do they want to get rid of the thumb turn anyway? If it's because of the possibilty of someone breaking in using it then jut fit a letterbox guard or any kind of plate between the leterbox and lock.

[Jpaul]

i've got a client who wants to get their thumb turn euro changed to a double sided key euro, but it's the only door in and out of the property. if i change it am i breaking the law? or is it the landlord who'll be at fault in the event of a fire?

You could fit one of these

http://www.crownfire.co.uk/item87.htm

And fit it somewhere near the door..

[cred]

i too was thinking that Why do they want to get rid of the thumb turn anyway? in appartments they dont often have letterboxes on the doors, usually mail boxes down stairs.

[MrB]

Problem with thumb turn: smash window and reach through? Many doors have glass in or beside them.

[capt.dunc]

they want to get rid of their thumb turn to prevent their small child from being able to open the door and run away.
jpaul, no that's not an option, the ruling states that you must be able to get out without the use of a key, so no sash jammers either and the frame sits funny by the wall so a bolt or chain are no go (they would be permited)
the rule also states that this only applies to locks for securing the door from the inside. so it begs the question, can you fit a bs lever lock if it'll be the only lock on the door, and you believe that the client will use it at night?
cred, in scottish tenement blocks, it is the norm for each flat to have a letterbox on it's door. the postie uses the service button on the downstairs door then delivers the letters to each flat.
this ruling is new and many councils are putting gaurds on the inside of the letterbox, and two thumbturn operated cylinders as the security (ruko is fairly common). has anyone tried using a spy hole tool? i was curious as to how easy it would be to hook a thumb turn using one blind, or by putting a camera through the letter box and working from above.

[Mad Mick]

...has anyone tried using a spy hole tool? i was curious as to how easy it would be to hook a thumb turn using one blind, or by putting a camera through the letter box and working from above.

You could use the cheaper way of viewing through the letterbox, by using a borescope. The 18" one I have uses the same type of outer sheathing as found in DJ turntable lights...I can bend it to look into my other eye - kinda wierd feeling...

[capt.dunc]

that's not what they're for mick, behave yourself. how much is a borescope, there's a lot of cheep cameras about many lockies use one on their letterbox tool, so it's just a case of making a new mount to get it to a workable position.
ps i'm being dim, (lots on my small mind, i'm moving to a new area, don't know what type of locks are common, have to re-advertise etc. ) you can get a non lockable sash jammer can't you i only ever think of them for windows, and hence only think of the lockable type. but this piece of legisation is going to cause problems. and remember scotland has been the testing ground for things before they go uk wide in the past, ie poll tax.

[Shrub]

Get your problem cleared up with the fire service as i thought it applied to fire escapes and not private front doors (i know a one doored flat has its front door classed as a fire escape but differant regs apply in england for those)

Why doesnt your client just have a bolt on the top of the door?

[capt.dunc]

the new rule is for domestic residences in blocks in scotland. they were also talking about all houses of multiple occupency (an hmo, i don't know if you have that class of housing in england) having to be fitted with sprinkler systems, i don't know if they passed that in the end.
as for the bolt question, see above.
and thanks for answering.

[Shrub]

Give them a glass bolt then

[toomush2drink]

I would go with the sash jammers myself and its something i use on my front door for this very purpose. It all well and good having all these locks etc but its too easy to get caught out in a fire. If you get the era sash jammers the locking part is removable so the choice of using it is up to you. The ssec ones from alrdridge are identicle to the era ones but without the locking part. Think of them as a bolt or chain, when fitted with the right size spacers on upvc they work a treat.

[Shrub]

Sash jammers do seem to be the sencible solution.