Your thoughts on Locksport groups?

[digital_blue]

As we endeavour to get this LSI concept off the ground, I'd like to get some general idea of what's in the minds of you folks out there. I've tried to typify what I think are some possible reactions to this whole idea. I know that there are a myriad of other possible opinions but try your best to put yourself in one of the above categories.

Thanks!

db

[Geek142]

Hey

You should also have included in there that the people you know or in your town would use it maliciously which stops you from making a group fearing they will use it the wrong way.

I would love to start a group though.

Geek

[Ezer]

I would love to be in a group. Problem is I don't know that many people around here even though I've been here 14 years. I work completely by myself. Most younger people here have nothing going for them and just want to drink or do meth all the time. The few good ones I know I've tried to get into picking, but none of them care. This a small town with few opportunities. So most of the good younger people move. I've tried talking to people of older age groups, but they usually just make a joke about me being a burglar.

Something else that bothers me about starting up a group here is the level of security of the town. High security locks are just none existent here. You would not believe the number of restaurants and other businesses that use Defiant locks. There are $500k+ homes here with Kwiksets. So the idea of having to find people around here I don't know to start a group, since none that I do know are interested, scares me.

I plan on moving somewhere/anywhere in the next 6-8 months if not sooner. Hopefully wherever I move will be better suited to start a group, or maybe if this catches on quickly enough, I could move somewhere where one is already established.

[kodierer]

I hear you Ezer.
I live in a small town as well. 13,000 all together. I have successfully started off 4 pickers, and others have shown interest. I have organized one demonstration so far, and it went well. I plan on organizing a larger one soon. Hopefully I can attract more people to the hobby.
My town also has a problem with drug use. For this I would have to be careful in deciding who could be a member, because meth addicts no matter how good of people they are most of the time won't hesitate to steal when they're desperate for a fix, and I don't want to be responsible for giving skills to thieves.

[digital_blue]

That's an important point kodierer. One of the issues associated with having local locksport clubs is ensuring "quality control" within membership. This is important for a couple reasons. The obvious is that nobody wants to "equip criminals" or encourage unethical or illegal behaviour. Also, if locksport clubs are going to grow and survive I think it's imperative that local law enforcement be onside. If you can demonstrate a strict adherance to the law, and a desire to keep "undesirables" out of your club I think it goes a long way to gaining the trust and cooperation of law enforcement.

That's actually the motivation behind the photo membership ID cards that LSI is issuing. Each card has a contact name and number on it. On the back of the card are printed instructions asking any law enforcement agent to confiscate the card and telephone the contact person should the member be found to be violating the law. Obviously this will only come into play if the member is caught commiting a crime serious enough to incite a search of his/her person and the card be discovered.

db

[quicklocks]

[The Wanderer]

What is the criteria for membership? We should have something legal that is written in stone for all to see and understand.

So should we be asking all potential members if they have a criminal history?

If so, does that mean their membership should automatically be revoked?

If they have served their time, and are no longer on probation, and are technically "free and clear", (Like Karla Homolka!!!) can we still revoke said membership without legal repercussions? How can we check the background of everyone that submits a membership? The local Police aren't going to want to do a background check for every member that hands in an application, are they?

I live on a border town right next door to Detroit Michigan. What do I do if I get American members wanting to join, in the beginning? How do I check up on them?

In the beginning it's easy to get a few members. Your friends are people you know and trust. It all starts to come apart after you are getting membership from the general public.

I don't want a lot of strangers in my house. There are businesses that have rooms for this sort of thing, for free I think? (Don't quote me on that yet.) Like Zehrs for example. Common rooms I think they call them. I think they are set aside for non profit organisations. I think a couple of the Credit Unions have the same thing. You have to have an account there, which shouldn't be a big deal.

I still have plenty of questions. These are the alarms that went off in my brain after reading the charter. Any ideas?

[digital_blue]

Membership quality control is built into the member application process. As applicants require the endorsement of 2 members in good standing, one of them being the president of the local chapter, there is the ability to control access in this manner. This is a similar format that is used by the International Brotherhood of Magicians and has served them well since 1914 or so.

I don't think it is either practical or reasonable to ask for criminal record checks for every new member. It has nothing to do with whether the police would like it or not. In Canada you have to pay for criminal record checks and many perspective employers are requiring that. I am sure there is something similar in other countries. However, it all seems a bit much to me for someone thinking of joing a sportgroup. I think that with the endorsement of the pres and at least one additional member we should be in good shape as far as keeping out an unwanted element and satisfying concerns that may be raised by law enforcement and the community.

In repect to meeting places, presidents of local chapters have the illustrious job of coordinating meeting places and schedules. I expect that early on as the chapter attendance is small, meetings will likely be held in people's homes as is being done in Edmonton next weekend and in Winnipeg likely at the end of July. As need arises, based on membership and attendance head counts, there will be the need to move meetings into a more accommodating space. There are a whole whack of places that serve this type of need. Wanderer, you mentioned a couple, but I would add church basments, community centres, rec centres, etc. This is one area where the board will be able to step in and help by providing partial or full subsidation for the costs of these spaces. Decisions to this end will be made based on a balance of need and budget, and is something that will be worked out between the board and the officers of the individual chapters.

db

[digital_blue]

I should add as well that the membership application makes clear that membership is granted and denied at the sole discretion of the board and can be revoked at any time for any reason. Barring human rights issues that can not, for obvious and appropriate reasons, be overruled, LSI reserves the right to terminiate a membership if there is a reasonable need to do so. I think we have things covered from a legal perspective to protect us from litigation. I also really don't anticipate a problem here. This is all meant to be a fun and lighthearted experience for people. It's even part of our mission statement.

db

[Varjeal]

I would also add that the Member's Rules of Conduct address' these issues (especially the issue of criminal records and prosecution) in addition to and clarifying the Charter.

I would also re-emphasize db's point about the real purpose of the association. We're here to look after the business side of things so that the rest of you can have fun in an organized fashion. We really appreciate you voicing concerns as this helps us do the business that needs to be done.

Thanks.

[kodierer]

I'd make my members sign a contract once I started getting members I didn't know.
Other than that I think that it would be a good idea to get the police as involved members of the group. The police in my community are known to respond to lockout calls, and the police would be sure to at least make members weary of joining with criminal intent if not be able to point out potential members which may not be the most ethical.

[digital_blue]

I'd make my members sign a contract once I started getting members I didn't know.
Other than that I think that it would be a good idea to get the police as involved members of the group. The police in my community are known to respond to lockout calls, and the police would be sure to at least make members weary of joining with criminal intent if not be able to point out potential members which may not be the most ethical.

That would be fantastic! Nothing like having a cop or two in your ranks to keep things on the up and up! Mind you, I am pretty sure the cops in my city don't do lockout calls, but I did have a cop in attendance at a lecture I gave recently for my magic club (cause he's a magician). Never know... maybe he'll get hooked on lockpicking.

db

[Pickety]

That's actually the motivation behind the photo membership ID cards that LSI is issuing. Each card has a contact name and number on it. On the back of the card are printed instructions asking any law enforcement agent to confiscate the card and telephone the contact person should the member be found to be violating the law. Obviously this will only come into play if the member is caught commiting a crime serious enough to incite a search of his/her person and the card be discovered.

db

Im sure someone else here probably alrady thought of this, but i didnt see it posted anywhere so i thought i'd give it a shout...
The membership ID cards sounds like a cool idea and i'd be up for it, but if somebody is a criminal and they decide to go out and do something illegal, they could always just leave the card at their place of residence

[digital_blue]

Yes, of course. But then again, they are still faced with the question of why they are in possession of pick tools. The cards act to help distinguish our members and show "just cause" so to speak for why they are carrying tools. If I got pulled over on the way to a meeting and my tools were sitting on my passenger seat and I was questioned about them, I would have the advantage of showing *why* I carry the tools. The intention is to make local police derpartments aware of our presence and our activities in order to keep them satisfied with our hobby.

It is most certainly not infallable but shy of criminal record checks (which even then don't necessarly mean anything since not having a record does not immediately make you a good, upstanding citizen) I don't see a more practical way of helping quality control. This step, coupled with the endorsement process for new membership, and the constant peer review should act as enough of a deterrant for the seedy types.

It is important that we maintain a culture in club meetings that makes it unquestionably clear that we don't tolerate unethical, illegal, or immoral activity among our ranks. That is really the best first step. The ID Cards act as a show of faith for law enforcement as well as a layer of protection for members.

db

[sivlogkart]

The way to set it up and conduct meetings etc is very similar to say a martial arts club. Hitting people in the street is against the law in most places but learning fighting skills in a club is not. Both can be used for good or crime etc and we should probably make that parallel clear when dealing with the police etc.

Also I know that many places are safer now as I have pointed out and in some cases shown the dangers and this is very much like self defence.

That is roughly how I have contacted my own ad hoc meetings to date, but would welcome being part of something bigger and more formal.

There is however one problem amount say mathematicians etc that even though most are not evil they do have the attitude to lockpicking and hacking etc that they will do something if it is possible, just to prove they can. But if they have enough tests in meetings and there skill are know etc can be turned away from this. The hard thing is what to do in the early stages.

However the same is true of martial arts clubs, and street fighters can be turned around by such clubs. I agree they should not be members till that is complete though.

With lockpicking it is easier to start of on a better footing than that and we should not consider people who are known criminals etc, but slightly ill -motivated students can be saved by such clubs, as it is an outlet for their skills etc.

KJ