Question to DIY pickmakers...

[devildog]

I noticed that someone recently made some very nice reproductions of some Falle picks on here, and that along with the recurring thought of how much I'd like to have some Falle picks (and the irritating reality that I can't come close to affording them right now) gave me an idea--Why doesn't someone start making copies of these and other quality picks and then reselling them on here like what Raimundo is doing with his Bogota picks?

Now, I haven't the slightest notion as to whether or not this would be legal or not, because I'm not the least bit familiar with how patent law would work here--could this be legally done as long as the maker didn't refer to or label them as having anything to do with 'John Falle', etc.??

I know that myself, along with many others on this board who have mastered basic picking (Masterlocks, Kwiksets, maybe even Schlage or Yale, etc.) and are currently working on the next level (for you that could be anything from Schlage/Yale to an ASSA or S&G), and we would just like a little bit nicer quality set of picks than our SouthOrd 15 PC Slimlines. We don't necessarily need any MORE types of picks, but we'd just like one's that are smooth and polished enough that our favorite hook, half-diamond, or snake-rake doesn't catch on the pins half the time because they're not quite as smooth as they can be (don't get me wrong--SouthOrd puts out a fine product for the price, and is a Godsend for newbies because they're decent, affordable, and very easy to get and order, but I've noticed that they're not quite supershiny baby-butt smooth like Ray's Bogotas!! ).

I know that not only do I have nothing but a metal file and some pliers, let alone a dremel , but I haven't the least bit of the metalworking/carving/handiwork type of talent that would be needed to make half-decent picks, let alone some good Falle or Peterson reproductions! I'm sure that a good many other people here on this board are in a similar predicament, or they just don't have the time or inclination to go to as much trouble as to make their own. This seems like a real opportunity for the entrepreneurally inclined and talented homebrew pickmaker

[Shrub]

Hmmm,

Ok,

The problem is that this is just plain and simple copying.

If you wrote a book would you mind if i copied it but put my cover on it?

There is a fine line between copying a commercial pick and making a home brew one,

Raimundo isnt really copying just making picks that are dimensionally right for the locks he sells them for,

A wire for a mortice lock curtain pick can only be one sort of design (in a way) it has to clear a curtain and lift the levers,

A bogotta rake has to fit in the lock and lift the pins when needed to,

For you to exactally copy a commercially produced pick you had better be sure you are not copying any little design elements that are copyrighted in some way,

A snake pick is a snake pick but if you made and sold a snake pick with the same handle as a peterson you are copying someone elses work and can be prosicuted,

As i say its a funny and very fine line,

Yes, someone can make a pick set with a very good finish and one that works well,

No, someone can not make a pickset EXACTALLY the same as a commercial one due to the law.

Are you basically asking why are SO picks rough? well thats because they are stamped out and the tooling isnt sharened very often, every one who has them then sits down for a few hours with a whet stone or some wet 'n dry paper to finish them off,

If you are asking why cant commercial manufacturers produce picks like raimundos then the answer is in the qusetion, HAND MADE, you can buy picks that are a lot better than the SO ones but you have to pay,

It is not worth anyone copying the types of picks you describe as they are so cheap to buy and aquire anyway, someone who will take the time to produce high qualitly picks is only going to sell them at a price they are happy with and i would suggest that price in most cases to be more than twice the amount of you buying a commercial pick and polishing it yourself,

If raimundos picks were made by a machine the price would probably be a lot lower (sorry raimundo but i dont know how much you charge) but so would the quality,

Everyone starts making handmade picks to sell then they realise they can make them quicker if they grind them roughly and then finish and re-heat treat them, then they realise that they can have a die made and produce 100's a week, then all of a sudden they are pick manufactures making 1000's a week and not finishing them like the old days, roll on the next newbie who starts making hand made picks to sell then realises he can.............and the beat goes on......

A thought out solution but unfortunatley not a pratical one, i finish with my opening,
Would you write a book and be ok with someone else copying it but selling it with a differant cover?

[Chrispy]

All very good points Shrub. But the fact of the matter is that as long as someone doesn't advertise the picks as Falle picks (hence counterfeit) then there's no problem. Literary copyrights differ from product patents.

Would I mind you copying a book I wrote and putting your cover on it? Yes, as this work is my intellectual property, and I would sue. Would I mind if I made a lockpick in a certain style and you copied it? Yes, but unless there's a major feature on my picks, which has never been included on a pick before and I've patented that design feature, then I can be as pissed off as I want, I just can't sue.

It's a grey area which differs from country to country. The first point would be to check and see if Falle even has a patent. If they do, then whatever it is about their picks that makes them 'special' cannot be copied (the design must be changed by 10% to null patents). Handles are one thing that distinguishs picks, I would assume they might be protected in some way. But other than that, I can't see a problem. I mean honestly, a pick's a pick.

[pretender]

I've thought about it, given that I could definitely use the cash...buuuut...with the amount of time I put into just one pick to get the finish and balance I feel is correct, it just isn't worth it in a business sense.

What I'd make from them would probably be at a loss because of the time expenditure. Nevermind the costs for dremel parts, driving to the store, shipping costs, etc.

Ethically, I'd feel wrong turning a hobby I love into a for-profit endeavor. If I ran a business, I wouldn't be able to refuse to hook people up because I didn't trust them, or I'd be at a severe disadvantage in doing so, anyway.

I made up my mind about three packs of hacksaw blades ago to just take a couple blanks out of each batch I make for myself and produce really basic sets of the same quality I demand...except I give them away, at my cost, to people I deem trustworthy.

Makes me happier than having to ask someone for money, teaches these neophytes new stuff, and potentially helps the lockpicking community by infusing it with more interested people - everyone wins.

Even if it did infringe on patents somewhat, I just don't see Falle or other pick makers going after people who chose to sell 'artisan' quality picksets. It wouldn't impact their business much. Plenty of people make copies of the SO snake pick, and they aren't suing like mad.

[Shrub]

Theres a lot of ins and outs with it all, im of the opinon that basically a pick has to meet certain dimensional criteria for it to work, if you were to produce a pick that worked with never seing one before you would find it not to differant to a bought one regardless of lock,

If you are making picks that carry a commercial name thus fakes then it has to be morally wrong as well as the legal side,

I think it should be live and let live, if someone is skilled enough to even directly copy a commercial pick for his/her own use then i dont see any problem with it, if they were doing it to sell it would be quite unlikely it would be achievable due to set up costs involved,

As a side note, yes i do think John Falle would have words with his lawers if you were making and selling his restricted stuff,

[raimundo]

Patented stuff often, and probably its required, is marked a patented. Written stuff is marked copyrighted with a date, (copyrights run out eventually, old bill shakespeare is outta luck) Registered trademarks are marked as registered. Have you noticed that the various pickmakers are making picks that are exactly the same, This is probably because successful pick designs are probably originated as handmades by locksmiths in the trade and never patented, commercial manufacturers just copy these. (that would explain the continuing existence of ball and snowman picks.) Very likly, a pick has to be something really special to even be elegible for a patent, (bill gates dosent have the copyright on ones and zeros, but he would if he could) The hook pick is a hook pick, I doubt anyone has our even could patent one.
About copying falle designs, there is no reason not to for personal use, but marketing would be another thing. My bogota rake has been around since 1980, and at least one commercial pick maker does something of a similiar profile which came after I made them, but since they don't copy the handle and don't round down those sharp edges, it can't work the same.

[Shrub]

Raimundo did you get that pm

[Peter Martin]

These govt protections are made to keep people from copying designs and subsequently SELLING the items. Making similar items, i.e. picks, for personal use is acceptable.

You can also make an improved version (called "wrapping around" their patent) which is perfectly legal--you can then market any improved versions, patent them, sell them--even if they look similar. But there has to be some substantial design or material change. You'll eventually need a patent lawyer.

Mass-producing someone elses patented pick designs and introducing them in the "stream of commerce" or for profit would probably get you a nasty "cease and desist" letter from some corporate Falle lawyer.

[devildog]

Someone's already doing it: http://www.lockpicktools.com/lockpicks.htm

I just made a couple of sort of half-a$$ed shallow curve/Falle types of picks out of a couple of SouthOrd hooks that I'm absolutely LOVING so I really do think I'll be picking up a set of those deep-curve picks from the company above.