reaching around long pins

[TippmannMan]

hopefully this isnt one of those things i havent thought about enough and thus turn out to be something really obvious. for information purposes i ordered and received several southern ordnance stainless steel reinforced picks. the only lock that is pickable in my house (yes there is only one besides the front door, i live in an apartment and the other locks open simply by applying a small amount of torque on the plug and click, it opens) has long pins and i cant figure out how you can possibly feel the rear most pins since i cant get a pick back there. yes, i assure you ive tried all the permutations of holding the pick i can think of, but try as i might the pins prevent me from reaching below and picking at the ones in the back unless i lift the front pins in sequence till i get there. it seems physically impossible. i have tried the small hook and small half diamond and even the small snake. now then, you might ask why im skipping all the front pins to get to the back? well i dont know why i am. it just makes sense to me that i should be able to. so...

do i need a smaller pick?
is this a rare pin tumbler lock?

or is it something i havent thought of yet? the apartment complex is around 20 years old, im sorry i cant say what brand the lock is either. ill try finding another lock to practice on but ill appreciate any help in the meanwhile. thanks in advance

oh and also, how is one supposed to lift all the pins at once using a hook?

[Chucklz]

You dont lift the pins all at once using a hook. I suggest you read the MIT guide.... be very certain you completely understand what your supposed to be doing. If your pins set in such a way that you need to pick the front pins before the back pins, a deep curved pick is in order ala Falle or Peterson (my I harp alot about peterson lately....)

[hozer2k]

In such case, I found a modded pic works better. I have some from southord and I what I did was file down the "shaft" part to it would be able to reach better. Also what I have found is that if you use the tapping technique or sometimes raking it may not matter. This works similar to how electric and snap guns guns work. I compared the pic I used and the key and there would be no way to pick it unless you got a seperation between the pins and the driver.

[TippmannMan]

thanks for replying chucklz, i have read the guide and a couple of other references and between posts, have been able to find a lock i could pick in my house (a pad lock to be more specific). the reason why i ask is i am pretty sure one exercise in the MIT guide mentions trying to lift all the pins at the same time to get a feel for the maximum spring resistance or something to that nature. which also leads to my initial question: the only reason i want to know how to pick the back pins individually before the front is because i believe that is another exercise listed in the MIT guide: to pick from back to front and i didnt see how that was possible without hitting the front pins on this lock first. and although your deep curved pick suggestion would work with everything else, the lock i am working on has such long pins it doesnt seem like anything can get back there. i tried using my apartment key and it wouldnt fit. is this lock broken? i mean the key wont even go in, but when i wedge a pick in there the pins lift.

[TippmannMan]

thanks for replying too hozer2k you caught me in replying. i think ive decided to let it be but id still like to know what the deal is with such a lock.

[marso]

Hi, Sometimes I find I can put the pick all the way through the lock past the last pin and outside the cylinder. Since it is in my hand I notice it is happening and move forward little. When i close my eyes to pick this lock i put the pick in (no wrench) to the top of the keyway and slowly move forward. Then i move myway down the first pin and push it up. I move along the top again and hit the second pin move down push the pin up and so forth till i hit the last pin. Now i know i am on the last pin I work out how much of the pick is in the lock and remember it.

Also keep in mind the pick might need to be placed in before the wrench on some rare occasions.

[Chucklz]

Personally, I like to place the pick in the lock before the wrench, to see where in the lock the wrench would best fit. For a lock with long pins, I would say to put the turning tool at the top of the keyway, being careful not to hit the first pin, to allow for maximum pick room. I certainly appreciate your use of the MIT guides exercises, but there is no reason to look to the back of the lock first, unless the pins iin the back need to be picked first. Most of the exercies in the guide are designed to help you feel wats occuring in the lock. If you have noticed that your picking interferees with the front pins, you may already be well on your way. If you are using SouthOrd picks, I would say that it may be very helpful to grind down the end of the pick near the handle, so that the taper to handle is reduced considerably. Experiment, and do share. By any chance, is the lock you are tyring to pick a Yale, or a Yale knockoff?

[marso]

chucklz, i agree but if he is finding it hard to find the last pin then the exercise will help him count to 5

[TippmannMan]

all is well now gentlemen at the time of writing i had just begun the hobby and had a lack of familiarity with other locks. i noticed its just about the same as everything, it was my misconception that lock picking was like splinter cell which caused me think that touching any pin besides the pin i was supposed to pick was wrong anyway im glad to announce ive progressed nicely in knowledge and skill since then. thanks for all your help

[unclepappy]

I've read the entire post guys and I have to say that you are following the bible of the Guide too closely. Dudes Chill. You will find that your blood pressure will thank you. I've picked many locks many ways and you know what. Sometimes I do in fact push all the pins up with my hook. I then apply my tension and let them drop. Voila, bound pins. There is no right way. Tippman if you know the theory practice. Practice, practice practice. You will be able to feel when the pin is up and when it isn't. Those long pin locks are a problem no matter how experienced you are. I usually use my broken pick to push the long pins up. Because I can adjust the hight minimaly. No rules. If you get it open, cudos to you. If not you need a key. I find that 90% of the locks I pick I do nothing more than rake.

{edited by Varjeal: Please avoid the use of inappropriate language. See forum rules. Thanks}

[Chucklz]

The guide is a good general set of principles to follow. I dont know about you pappy, but I doubt anyone reasons de novo when picking a lock. Especially something new, its always best to reason a principia, especially when you know that your principles are sound. If you re-read my posts, you will notice I often encourage people to reason to an answer, instead of flat out giving one. I beleive it is important to show someone to a fork in the road, not lead them blindly down a path. But, its important to get a few miles of well travelled bit of common ground as well.

[marso]

Pappy: agree with what you said.

I will say, like all things I suggest they are normally given to people who are starting (like that day) and have no idea even where the tension wrench goes. If you go back to basics and explain to someone how to get to the last pin then they should be able to see if it is a 4,5,6 pin lock and so forth.

Having said all taht I am just starting so dont take anything i say as gosphel