Key Bumping

[NKT]

Eric explained this attack to me, and I've read the report he wrote.

It's a valid attack, and it lets him open some of these locks in a few minutes. Let's see you pick one in less than that!

As for a bumpkey for it, the blanks are restricted, and so the only way for 99% of interested people to get one will be to blow $40 on a lock of the right type. His attack costs a few pence in materials.

[n2oah]

It's a valid attack, and it lets him open some of these locks in a few minutes. Let's see you pick one in less than that!

Some, not all. I do admit that I was overstating by saying that the attack is obsolete, but the Michaud attack takes a couple of minutes and bumping takes seconds, so do you think the Michaud attack is Mul-t-locks biggest problem? I think not.

[yippeegollies]

Little update on my bumping trials. Some locks such as Weiser (Falcon), Kwikset, Weslock, use flat bottom pins when they are factory keyed. Later, when they are REKEYED, most locksmiths (not all) use universal bottom pins which are pointed and don't require as wide a base. So for these locks one would need 2 different sets of bump keys because the wide base keys wouldn't contact the universal pins and the narrow base keys wouldn't allow the factory tumblers to settle in to the 9 depth before bumping.

I read the above 3 times and it makes sense to me, but I'm sure I've confused a few people.

Yip

[vector40]

Flat bottom pins? o_O

On the upside, I doubt you'd really be needing a bump key for those types of locks anyway...

[yippeegollies]

Well they are not really flat-flat like the drivers. Basically they just have a bit of a chamfer on the edge that rides the key. Take apart a brand new Weiser and a brand new Schlage and compare the bottom pins. It's quite a remarkable difference.

Yip

[yippeegollies]

Dang...Can't edit posts. And yes, you're right about them being easy to pick. The keyway is so wide you can almost get your hand in.

Yip

[vector40]

I have a Schlage and a Kwikset here and both have a pretty serious angle on the bottom of the key pins. I don't know how you'd get the key in otherwise.

[yippeegollies]

If these are both factory fresh there should be a very big difference in the shape of the bottom pins. Perhaps the locks have been rekeyed already.

Yip

[yippeegollies]

Wish I could edit posts...dang!

Weiser original pins are all the same color...BRASS. Schlage original pins are all the same color...SILVER. If you have multi-colored pins, the lock HAS BEEN rekeyed using universal tumblers.

Yip

[vector40]

Maybe you could take a picture of the difference and post it? I really don't think I've ever seen a bottom pin that wasn't significantly chamfered.

[NKT]

I think Vec will have picked up on whether the lock has been played with or not.

The thing with having a flat bottom pin is that it will mess up your MACS so the difference between adjacent cuts winds up being very small, as the pins won't ride over the key so easily.

[yippeegollies]

I think Vec will have picked up on whether the lock has been played with or not.

The thing with having a flat bottom pin is that it will mess up your MACS so the difference between adjacent cuts winds up being very small, as the pins won't ride over the key so easily.

Exactly right! That's why the MACS on Weiser is only 5 as compared to Schlage 6. Also Schlage depths are .015 increments compared to Weiser .018 which also accounts for the MACS difference.

I'll take a picture of the Weiser and Schlage pins and post it. (provided someone follows this post with instructions on how to attach the JPEG to my post, just in case it's not obvious to me when I come back)

Yip

[n2oah]

Maybe you could take a picture of the difference and post it? I really don't think I've ever seen a bottom pin that wasn't significantly chamfered.

Bottom pins that aren't chamfered resist bumping well. One example is the Kaba Penta. The Penta uses a couple of different shapes of pins, if you try to bump the lock the pins will damage the key significantly and you may not be able to remove the bumpkey. The cuts are also very close together, so the soft key will easily distort the cuts. (the pins are made of a very hard metal)

[n2oah]

I hate not having a edit button!

Yip, to show off a photo in your post, first get a photobucket (photobucket.com, its free) account if you don't already have one. Then once you have uploaded your picture to your account, the look under the picture. The third line down should say "Img" copy the info in that box and paste it into your post. If the image is already online, put the url where the * is; [img]*[/img]

[devildog]

I've actually thought of making some hard steel bump keys so that they won't wear out as fast; I think that if you only bumped open a lock once or twice with such a key, it really wouldn't do any damage (repeatedly doing it will damage the lock regardless of key material), and it would probably solve the above mentioned problem with the Kaba. Maybe carbon fiber, micarta, G-10, or titanium? Opinions (I'll not be the least bit suprised if I'm way off on this, so feel free to say so if I am )??