newbie question/help

[h2ocop]

I have been reading posts for a while now but this is my frist post/question. A little background on myself might also help. I am a narcotics detective with a metro police department. As such we utilize a tech. services unit for some of our needs (wires, shooting video, etc.). About 9 months ago a court order was given for a sneek and peek warrant. This is when we the police covertly enter a place to gain further evidence in an investigation. One of the tech. services guys was assigned to pick the lock on a standard residential door. The lock on the door was a Home Depot TITAN deadbolt (turns out this is the same one that is on my front door). After 2 hours it was determined that he was not going to pick the lock and the operation was terminated, or at least the sneek and peek part. The bad guy was arrested several months later, and it was learned that there was over 100 kilos of cocaine inside the residence about the time we had the warrant. Had that single deadbolt lock been picked there would have been 100 less kilos of cociane on the street. This is what sparked my intrest in lockpicking.
I picked up a standard set of pick and got a 5 pin tumbler from a local locksmith. After many failed attempts I gave up. I then bought an eletric pick gun and had the same results. About 2 weeks ago I had my front door replaced and kept the TITAN deadbolt for pratice. I sat down one night and used a rake pick until I was able to pick the tumbler the locksmith gave me. However I found that I could no always repeat picking the lock. I then used a hook pick and found that I could get it almost eveytime. Everything that I have read has said that you should start picking a lock from the rear of the cylinder and work backwards. I discovered that when I pick this lock from the #3 pin backwards then go to the last two pins (back of the cylinder) it opens everytime usually in less than 10 seconds. I have picked the TITAN deadbolt but can not repeat as often/fast as the other lock. Sorry for being so long winded but here is my question(s) Do tumbler locks all pick differently? by this I mean with some will I have to start picking from the middle of the lock and work my way around or should I always start from the rear of the cylinder? thanks for any input

[h2ocop]

sorry posted in the wrong fourum but I dont plan on typing this again

[Mad Mick]

The picking order is determined by the binding order of the pins. If picking a particular cylinder in one direction, i.e. CW, yields an order of 13254, it can be assumed that picking CCW reverses the picking order, i.e. 45231. Some locks will pick far more easily in the locking direction, which then requires the use of a plug-spinner to flip the plug over to the unlocking direction.

There is no hard and fast rule which dictates that the order goes from back to front, or vice versa. What generates the picking order, is machining tolerances. Ideally, the multiple drillings in which the pins are housed would be perfectly aligned along the axis of the plug. Unfortunately, machines cannot yet place cutting tools accurately enough to produce perfectly aligned holes, so there will always be a slight deviation to one side, or another. This off-setting of holes is what allows a pin to be bound between the plug and the cylinder. The larger the off-set between holes, the easier it is to differentiate between hard-bound and slightly-bound pins. Until manufacturers are able to work on the molecular level, there will still be large enough perceptible differences that can be interpreted by feel alone.

[SFGOON]

It will be different for every single lock you pick. The theory of picking (which you need to get familiar with if you want to be able to pick well) is based on minor mechanical flaws in the plug which allows the lockiing mechanism to be progessively compromised. Some good resources

1. A DAME course taught by the DoD if you department can afford it.

2. Locks, safes, and security by Mark Weber Tobias, Esq. His website, www.security.org will also be of great assistence.

3. The MIT guide to lockpicking is a publicly distributed PDF document that will be easily foud with a quick google search.

4. Secrets of lockpicking by Steve Hampton and available at www.paladin-press.com

Bottom line is you need to practice more. I would reccomend getting some weiser and kwickset locks to practice on, as well as some cut away practice locks to better understnd the inner working of a lock. Not all locks are the same , and you will need to practice on progessively more difficult locks if you want to enhance the myriad of diciplines you will need to become proficent in this skill. Feel free to PM me with any further questions you have, I am a former SF operator who has performed surreptitious entry in the field, always eager to help fellow professionals.

[h2ocop]

thanks that help but also leave me with a few more question. When you refer to machining tolerance is it the same for each individual lock maker? By this I mean do all brand X locks pick in the same order? or is it different for each individual lock. Also I would assume that the more I pratice the better I can "feel" what is going on inside the lock.

[SFGOON]

No. Different locks will have tighter or looser tolerances, making picking harder or easier. Picking order varies from lock to lock and takes a little bit of time to acertain. Some locks have what we call "security pins" that can thwart begginer pickers (but not me.) Other locks cannot be picked the same way that pin tumblers are. If you're going to be the guy taking care of the locks on what sounds like some very high risk warrants then you should really study this subject more indepth - I would HATE to be the one caught by some campicino trying to pick his front door when he had 100 kilos of blow on his kitchen table. 2 hours is entirely unacceptable, the bad guys have WAY too big a window to compromise you. 30 seconds to 5 minutes on the lock should be the MAX, and that's under duress.....

[Chucklz]

2 hours for a kwikset.... wow your pick guy was probably having a bad day, and probably left very disheartened.

Individual locks pick to different orders, true you may find that a whole bunch of kwiksets pick front to back, but there are no rules. I am curious about what you've read that makes it seem like its a back to front deal. Lots of newbies have this misconception. I wonder if we are just doing a bad job of writing intro guides. Help would be appreciated.

[h2ocop]

I got the info. for picking back to front from Hampton's book "Secrets of Lock Picking" page 19. Also the MIT guide give the same basic info. if i remember correctly

[Chrispy]

I'm sorry, But I can't imagine a couple of cops sitting out the front of a (by the sounds of it) major drug dealers house picking his front door lock for 2 hours. That's a long time for something to go wrong and the whole op would have gone down in flames.

[SFGOON]

In a major mteropolitian city where there's likely and abundance of skilled locksmiths no less. Makes you wonder...

[n2oah]

You could've just broken the door down.

[Chrispy]

You could've just broken the door down.

Yeah... good idea....

[n2oah]

You could've just broken the door down.

Yeah... good idea....

I've always wanted to be on the SWAT team, any openings?

[Chrispy]

I've always thought Prison ERT (Emergency Response Teams) would be an interesting job. Nothing like taking on rioting inmates throwing bricks, rubbish cans and bags of warm piss on you while you try to get up onto the roof to take them back to their cells with nothing but a baton and a riot shield.

[n2oah]

warm piss

I'll be honest and say I've never had warm bags of piss trown upon me, but I'm sure it would be fun.