Dudley Combination Locks

by **digital_blue** » 20 Aug 2005 23:38

If you've been trying to crack these locks, read this post!

I have to reiterate, I just don't see how you can apply safe cracking techniques. I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and reveal some closely guarded, publicly available info to those who are not members of the advanced forums...

Safe manipulation involves measuring the depth of the nose in the cam gate. The cam wheel serves to keep the nose up in normal conditions and the cam gate acts as a sort of "challenge response" or test.

(I sure hope this leak of such guarded info doesn't get me in mod-hot water

)

Ok, so given the above, what exactly would you be measuring with the sticking points that is equivalent to measuring the depth of the nose in the cam gate? If anything, it makes some amount of sense to me that measuring the amount of give in the shackle might tell you when one of the other two wheel is aligned, but even that seems unlikely to me since the tolerances on these locks are so bad that I find it difficult to imagine that any relevant data could be gleaned from a measurement like that.

I'd like to see a crack for these, simply because the quest for one has been ongoing for almost as long as I've been around here, but I personally don't see any evidence that a crack is any closer to being discovered than it was in March.

I don't think you can say how close you are on a scale of 1 to 10, 'cause until you have it, you have nothing. So, if pressed for a rating, I'd have to say 1.

Jeez, I know that all sounds negative, but at what point to you stop whipping a dead horse?

Ok, so here's my contribution. If anyone can come up with a reliable and reproducable crack for a dudley lock by the end of September, I will personally award them with a $20US "gift certificate" to www.lockpickshop.com. That's right! Outta my own pocket!

Here's the conditions:
1. No tools required. Pure manipulation only.
2. I must be able to use the described technique on a Dudley that I purchase locally to verify that the method works on locks other than your test locks.
3. I will determine the winner based on the person who first posts a successful method in this forum.
4. You must send me a PM to inform me that you believe you have a workable solution because I am only half-heartedly following this thread.
5. If you send me a PM asking me to check out a method that you've posted that does not end up working (and I will make every effort to follow your instructions carefully) you will be disqualified from winning with any further methods. (I am adding this clause so that I don't get stuck being a "tester" for any unproven methods.

So, it's out there. $20US to anyone that comes up with a workable solution by the end of September. Even more valuable than that will be the pride and glory of being "the one" that finally beat these things.

If, by the end of September there has been no solution, I will personally consider the issue dead.

It's on! Tell your friends.

db

by **TOWCH** » 21 Aug 2005 2:07

I apologize for that last post. I wrote that post based on the incorrect assumption that the fence was shaped somewhat like the nose of the lever in a safe lock. This was based on a vague mental image of a master lock fence. If you look at one I'm sure you can see where that came from. I realize now is neither of which is sloped in a way that would allow that to work. Though I still believe my other method will work.

I don't have a dudley but I think a master would suffice for testing the theory. I'll pick up some BBQ tongs next time I'm in town and give it a shot.

by **EjayHire** » 22 Aug 2005 19:24

Hello all. Thank you for a very enjoyable thread. I believe I have come upon the solution, but I need someone else to test it. It seems dudley locks are a Canadian Phenomenon, and not sold in the us, or at least in my corner. I've ordered some off the internet, but how long they'll take to get here is anyone's guess.

First, a couple of points.
There are 10 possible First Numbers, corresponding to the center of the sticky points. The Last number of the combination is quickly brute-forcible, by turning, tugging the shackle, repeat/repeat/repeat.

So, if we know the middle number of the combination, opening the lock is very quickly doable.

If you refer to the pictures digital blue posted on pg. 7

you can see the weakness in these locks. The gate position and "back pin" are in a fixed location, and the combination is set at the factory by varying the location of the "front pin" stamped into the disk. The wheels are "picked up" when a front and back pin touch.

If you rotate and pick up all of the wheels by turning clockwise (I'll use cw and ccw), 4 times, continue turning cw until you reach 0. Now all wheels are picked up, and the front pins and back pins are together. Turn in the opposite direction (dropping wheel 1 and 2) until you re-pick wheel 2 in the opposite direction. Stop and record the number x. Now continue turning until you re-pick wheel 1. Stop and record y. Subtract the second measurement from the first, and you know how "far" the second number is from the first. (z = x-y)

Then it's an easy matter of iterating over the possible combinations. Assuming the center of your sticking points is 4n+2, and using them for the possible first numbers, you have the following possible combinations.

2-(2+z)-..
6-(6+z)-..
10-(10+z)-..
14-(14+z)-..
18-(18+z)-..
22-(22+z)-..
26-(26+z)-..
30-(30+z)-..
34-(34+z)-..
38-(38+z)-..
42-(42+z)-..
46-(46+z)-..
50-(50+z)-..
54-(54+z)-..
58-(58+z)-..

Please forgive me if I have a + or - off, or my cw and ccw reversed. I've never physically seen one of these locks, and it's really hard to work this out just visualizing it.

I think.. (and I don't have this completely worked out yet) that you may be able to work out the third number's offset as well, because the pick pin is next to the gate, with the the first wheel picked left, second picked right, third picked right, then third picked left... but it exceeds my capability for visualization, and my plastic soda lids on a straw model doesn't permit me to model it.

The chap with the Lego lock should be able to replicate this pretty quickly, if not, then we can wait for my locks to come in.

Ejay Hire
... Hoping this makes sense to someone other than me.

by **pyroman** » 23 Aug 2005 11:50

Alright, I finally got around to writing a java program that creates a list of all posible combinations as rayman had wanted. Can anyone comfirm that the second number is actually CCW to the first and the third CW to the first? If so, ill add that to my program. Anyone who wants the list or simple program, add me to your msn: pyro32@gmail.com

by **EjayHire** » 24 Aug 2005 15:25

I am withdrawing my possible solution. The randomly placed "back" pin of wheel 1 engages the fixed pin on wheel 2, preventing any information from being gained in this manner.

There is some information to be gained from the construction of th second wheel though. The front and back pin cannot be stamped in the same place, and the back pin cannot be placed in the gate. This reduces the possible third number combination space by ~ 20%. Additionally, if the oval shaped hole exists on wheel two in other locks, it reduces the third number combination space by an additional 10-15%.

Can one of the other lock disassemblers confirm or deny if the second wheel has the oval shaped cutout (in the same place relative to the gate and front pin)?

-Ejay

by **rayman452** » 28 Aug 2005 20:17

Back after long vacation, and ready to work again. I was thinking again, and DB is right, safe manipulation technique won't work. However, I am thinking of a new idea. The disk for each lock can be different. In the picture before, the second gate has a hole in it. That was the same for mine, but only in the third disk. Orange showed me one with no holes. I was thinking, the last digit, we know its 1 mm lower than the others. We know that the second and third gate wheels are smaller openings than the false notched disk. The false notch clearence is 6 digits, and the second and third are 3 digits. I'm thinking if you can find the last digit, then you may be able to align the back with it. Just a random idea, but the information on the disks I think is important. As soon as I can get my hand on a cutting wheel and open a dudley, I'll get back to you on how this idea works. Also just a weird thought, you know, the dial is only stamped on, and pretty easy to take off with a screw driver when I cut mine open. Maybe theres a way to pry off the knob, crack it, then put it back on....but that would be distructive wouldn't it...hmm....off for more ideas.

Rayman452

by **rayman452** » 31 Aug 2005 7:33

my oval thing was on the third disk.
Oraneg had one without an oval.

by **Topol** » 31 Aug 2005 22:22

hey all, i've been following your thread for quite some time now, i finally decided i'd join. i came across this site while tryin to figure out the combination to a dudley i have. tonight i finally decided to rip it apart to see if i could make any sense of the combo. if you take pliers and bend the edges of the casing, you can open it up with no disruption to the wheels inside. by manipulating the wheels with your fingers, you can set the combo. by setting the faceplate on you can determine the numbers of the combination. when this is complete u can put the faceplate back on and bend the casing down to the way it came from factory. i know this defeats the purpose of cracking a combination but for those who need an answer fast, that seems to be the best bet. also, a myth to put to rest with the dudley is when you close the lock, if you don't move the dial the gate on the last number will remain close to its opening position (giving you the last number), this is NOT true, a spring sets off the wheels spinning them at random speeds.

by **rayman452** » 1 Sep 2005 19:19

peeling the edges up works? I'm going to give htat a shot, never thought of that, thought the brass was too strong. Well, we have one way to crack em now...

by **Topol** » 1 Sep 2005 22:58

yeah, it works, i'll post pics of what the inside looks like intact if it will help at all.

by **digital_blue** » 3 Sep 2005 1:41

I thought you all might get a kick outta this. I received this in my email box recently.

An obviously socially frustrated child wrote:hey dumbass u want to know how to open a dudley, wll ive known scince 2003 i invented the method by myself when i was on the crapper thinking about how they work.
i'm 15 now and all the tools i need are my own fingers.
but 20 bucks isnt much incentive to tell my method to the world and giving it to you, you might get all the credit. you need to give me the credit and scince i dont have an account at lockpicking 101 i cant tell <edit> to any1.

so if you really want to know and if you wont tell any1 else, u gotta mail me cash to my house. i dont want any of ur gift certificates.

my stakes are out, if ur interested reply to this and we'll figure out a price.

I... I... I just don't even know what to say to that.

So, suffice it to say that the award is still on the table to anyone who is not a nitwit. There's a lot of days left in september. I'd really like to see someone actually get these puppies cracked, but I would prefer when you PM me to tell me you have a solution that you don't act like an idiot.

db

by **Chrispy** » 3 Sep 2005 5:09

Come on db, you gotta share the name of this lockpicking genius with us so we can all benefit from his masterful wisdom and endless knowledge. :lol:

Some people... :roll:

by **Chrispy** » 3 Sep 2005 5:12

Wait a minute..... is this what you're on about GOON? :lol:

by **digital_blue** » 3 Sep 2005 8:56

Chrispy wrote::D Come on db, you gotta share the name of this lockpicking genius with us so we can all benefit from his masterful wisdom and endless knowledge.

Some people...

Naw. The names were changed to protect the ignorant. I am proud to say that he is a Canadian tho.

db

by **mupet** » 4 Sep 2005 18:05

Its a padlock. Get real and just cut it off and sell them a new one (more profit)

Dudley Combination Locks

master combo list

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