Medeco took me down hard

[n2oah]

What you're describing would require two vertical grooves on each such pin, with increased manufacturing cost (more grooves == more $$), and decreased security (more grooves == more ways to open).

I believe two grooves are used to masterkey Medeco Biaxial cylinders. In almost all cases except one (that would be Mul-t-Lock's case using solid pins--it resists the Michaud attack) masterkeying decreases security.

[foo]

What you're describing would require two vertical grooves on each such pin, with increased manufacturing cost (more grooves == more $$), and decreased security (more grooves == more ways to open).

I believe two grooves are used to masterkey Medeco Biaxial cylinders. In almost all cases except one (that would be Mul-t-Lock's case using solid pins--it resists the Michaud attack) masterkeying decreases security.

Of course masterkeying decreases security.

I wasn't comparing the security of masterkeying with the security of not masterkeying.

I was comparing the security of masterkeying with master wafers and multiple sidebar grooves in the key pin to the security of masterkeying with master wafers alone.

Anyhoo, all the masterkeyed BiAxial locks that I've seen (not really that many) had only one sidebar groove on each key pin.

/foo

[yippeegollies]

I'll try to clear this up if I can. If I could show you a lock and keys in person it would be immediately apparent. Anyway...let's assume a lock with only 1 chamber to keep it simple. Bi-axial of course.

Slave lock A has a key with a 3 cut in the 'fore' position.

Slave lock B has a key with a 3 cut in the 'aft' position.

Key A cannot open lock B and vice-versa.

Master key has a double-cut 3 (both fore AND aft), therefore it will open both locks. It is not necessary to use any special double grooved tumblers.

If you are not familiar with biaxial lock principles, then this has probably confused you even more. Hope it is understandable to everyone else. Perhaps some other member can expand on this and give me a hand.

Yip

[foo]

Slave lock A has a key with a 3 cut in the 'fore' position.

Slave lock B has a key with a 3 cut in the 'aft' position.

Key A cannot open lock B and vice-versa.

Master key has a double-cut 3 (both fore AND aft), therefore it will open both locks. It is not necessary to use any special double grooved tumblers.

Yip

Yip,

Very interesting. It hadn't occured to me to cut a key for both fore and aft positions.

Certainly it would allow construction of a key that opens two different locks...

But that's not what the original poster (monkeE) described. He described two different keys with different cut angles opening the same lock.

Now, I suppose it's possible that one of those keys was a (very complicated looking) double-cut key as you describe. But even in that case, the double-cut master key would still have had the same cut angles as the change key. Those cut angles might have been difficult to recognize if they were doubled up with other cut angles.

In monkeE's scenario (keys with different angles opening the same lock), the only way it could happen is if the key pins had multiple grooves.

/foo

[yippeegollies]

In monkeE's scenario (keys with different angles opening the same lock), the only way it could happen is if the key pins had multiple grooves.

/foo

Yes, you're right. Too bad we can't actually see his keys.

Yip

[raimundo]

Medeco, eh, well I have never picked one, but I have looked at the locks very carefully, and my opinion is that they are verry difficult but possible. there is no reason that it cannot be done as quickly as a winning lottery ticket makes you a millionaire. it dosent happen often, never has to me, but its not impossible.

[ThE_MasteR]

The only time I have seen someone pick a biaxial is in a tool competition (on video) The lock was a T14 Medeco Biaxial, and Barry Wels picked it in 1:58.07, quite amazing for a biaxial lock.

"on video" doesn't count. I could pick anything on video. I would want to examine the lock and make sure it was set up properly. ie;A stack of thin master pins in each chamber would make picking it a lot easier or any number of other sneaky fixes.

I don't know who Barry Wels is. I'm sure he's an honorable guy, but I would still want to see it myself.

Yip

Barry "the Key" Wels is the lock picking master man.

[mord]

This site has a good bit of info on how to pick the Medeco

http://www.fortliberty.org/military-lib ... ocks.shtml

[foo]

http://www.fortliberty.org/military-library/picking-new-high-security-door-locks.shtml

I don't think I'd bother using any of that info as help picking a Medeco BiAxial lock. Among the author's silly claims:

- 7 pin cylinders
- pick made from a steak knife
- the term 'angular' is used because "Medeco did this to prevent any type of foreign object such as picks from entering the keyhole since it is very tight and resticted"

And not a single mention of the sidebar, the grooves in the key pins, nor the critical nature of the angular postion of the key pins.

ymmv

/foo

[n2oah]

This site has a good bit of info on how to pick the Medeco

http://www.fortliberty.org/military-lib ... ocks.shtml

I'm not even sure if you could pick a non-biaxial lock with that misleading information. Much less, an actual Medeco.

[stick]

About the angled cuts:

Medeco did this to prevent any type of foreign object such as picks from entering the keyhole

In order to pick this lock, you must know how to use the "racking" technique.

I guess...

The tip of the pick must be slightly twisted to a 15 degee angle in order to pick any type of Medeco

Getting close, but not quite there...

About feather touch tension wrenches:

but the feel will be much more sensitive

What feel?

[Varjeal]

I know I shouldn't be flaming, but it is (hopefully) someone not a member of this site...and it was just too full of good stuff not to make fun of...please allow me to step away from admin/mod duties a moment to have some fun....

1. The locks are found only on places that need security??? Um..yeah...not so much....

2. Has anyone heard or read of Medeco locks being referred to as angular pin tumbler locks????

3. 6 or 7 pins huh....so which is it?

4. So let me get this straight...angled pins make it difficult to put picks in a lock? Pass the pipe, CRACKmaster. Btw, what does, "resticted" mean?

5. "Racking" technique...hmmm...I know my billiards skills are not much to speak of, but I didn't know there was an actual "technique"...oh..btw, what does that have to do with picking locks?

6. k....so I have a diamond pick, and it needs to have the tip twisted 15 degrees.....which way?

7. Oh..and then I can use a steak knife and file it down to the right shape...sounds like fun. Can I use a dull file please? Or how about just sandpaper?

8. What exactly is blue steel? Can I just take some steel and paint it blue?

9. After I've used the tension wrench once, I guess I have to throw it away 'cause its not new anymore, so it's no good to pick all Medeco's (how about some????).

10. I'll be sure to steal the spring from drapes in a hotel or motel lobby 'cause that sounds like a realllllly smart idea.

11. I'm sure the extra sensitve feel will be handy while I'm playing with Medeco's in jail.

I definitely gotta get some of the Crack that dude is using.

[Magic_Joe]

The lock you have there is a Biaxial lock the diffrance between it and a comercial lock is the postion of the pins. In a commercial lock the pins are labled as follow, "L" left "C" center and "R" right, which denotes the angle that the pin turns to let the sidebar fall in. The side bar is made in such a way that there is a leg for each chamber that fits into a slot in the pin. In the lock that you have there are 4 diffrant pins "K&M" are the left "B&D" are the center and "Q&S" are the right which the first is the FORE KBQ and the second is AFT MDS.
Follow so far good.
The padlock that you have is one of two types a removable core type orset screw type, there is a small hexhead set screw in the shacle hole (when I say small I mean small) it would look like a drain hole in the bottom of the shackle hole. The setscrew holds a ballbearing in place to hold the cylinder in, this is most likely the lock that you have.
If you want to get the cylinder out clean the shackle hole out (WD-40works good) and remove the set screw. If it is rusted in drill it out with a 1/16 in. drill bit (any larger and you might damage the cylinder). Be careful not to break the drillbit. Then you can remove the pin cap and take the lock apart, becareful that you keep the pins in order each length bottom pin has its own size top pin and when you pull the plug out the sidebar has two small springs behind it.
Any questions please ask away.

[n2oah]

Wow, Varjeal, way to go on the floobing.
It must be a pretty rotten post if even the Admin has to floob you, morb. :rolleyes:

What lock should be my first high security lock picked? (what lock type should I practice on, I already have pin-tumblers down)
Biaxial- preferrably not newgen, and with some pins taken out
Sidebars (Primus, ASSA twin)- preferrably with every pin taken out except a couple of sidebar pins
Pin-in-Pin- preferrably with some pins taken out
Laser Track- (bad EVVA 3Ks knockoffs) preferrably knock-off types without sidebars
Discs- (Abloy) preferrably a classic Abloy without false gates, or a knock-offs

[Chucklz]

Want to try some HS stuff?

Start with Best brand SFIC's They aren't technically high security, but they can be sufficiently fustrating and they need a different feel. Besides, you really sharpen your picking skills on these. Then try Schlage Everest. Not really high security, but its still a bit different. Then I would suggest trying to find a Kaba Peaks cylinder with not too nasty of a keyway.