Dudley Combination Locks

[TOWCH]

Some safe's do. I've never manipulated one but I'm familiar with the concept and it seems much easier. Sentry fire safe's use this type of locking mechanism aswell as a lot of cheap gun safes you can find in retail outlets like Walmart and Fred Meyer.

[Richard Dragon]

Some people here have not been thinking very logically or practically about this.

I am new here, but I have read the thread. I have applied some basic, logical Midnight Engineering principles to this problem, and I have some points to make.

1) The sticking points can help determine where the ten possibilities for the third number are. Beyond that, they are probably of no practical use. Which brings up:

2) A specialized tool for reading thousandths of an inch in shackle position would be of limited to zero use in actual field practice. If you need a to carry around a tool for opening padlocks, try a more generally useful tool such as bolt cutters.

3) Because of the disk size in the Dudley, the pins and gates cannot be in the same place on the disks. Therefore, because the pin is of significant size, there are reduced possibilities for the second combination number in relation to the third, and reduced possibilities for the first number in relation to the second. Along with item (1) above, these limitations greatly reduce the total number of combinations for the lock. However, this information will be of no use until someone looks at the disks and points out where the second number can NOT be in relation to the third, and the first in relation to the second.

4) I hope I explained (3) adequately. If so, a computer program or even simple formula could be made from the results. This would be a more practical and productive use of time than further pursuing "sticking points". Since the third number can narrowed to 1 of 10, reducing the first and second might narrow the possibilities to only one or a few hundred, rather than what random numbers would indicate (216,000). Then further cracking the "code" would be that much easier.

5) When mentioning your locks, Dudley or any other brand, you should always describe it and also GIVE THE SERIAL NUMBER. As mentioned earlier, there is a master list of combinations for each serial number, as there is for just about every brand of locks (though manufacturers do not always admit it). Breaking the hash that encodes the combination in the serial number (if one exists) is sometimes easier than trying to reverse-engineer the lock.

[wtf|pickproof?]

Some people here have not been thinking very logically or practically about this.

...snip...

2) A specialized tool for reading thousandths of an inch in shackle position would be of limited to zero use in actual field practice. If you need a to carry around a tool for opening padlocks, try a more generally useful tool such as bolt cutters.

I don't think disrespecting people for suggestions which might not be applicable to the locksmith on the road does any good, especially in a thread dedicated to finding _any_ way to manipulate a lock open. This ideas might inspire someone else to an actual solution (e.g.: a bypass tool) And suggesting boltcutters in a lockpicking forum,..... MAN at least suggest something like thermit(just for the fun of it ).

[Richard Dragon]

No disrespect either stated or intended. As I *did* clearly state, my own particular post was about being practical. It was not about using extreme measures to do something that is of limited utility anyway. I admit that it can be a fun mental execise, but let's not pretend it is anything more than that.

If you are a professional field mechanic, you still have access to a tow truck for worst-case sitations. In the same way, if you are a *practical* field locksmith -- what I was discussing -- you carry boltcutters. Anything else is just not professional, regardless of how unglamorous it may sound.

[Richard Dragon]

Pardon the multiple posts. I am not trying to beat a dead horse. I simply wanted to apologize for the typos. My keyboard is sticky. Also, to clarify that my earlier post was not intended to insult anyone, but simply to suggest that there are more practical ways to solve the problem than what I had seen previously posted.

[SFGOON]

Don't sweat it. 1. it needed to be said and 2. It's good to have new members here who are able to speak intelligently about physical security and have something to contribute. I look forward to reading your future posts.

Northwestern United States? Me too - you should fill us in on your backround a bit.

[Richard Dragon]

Very well . . . but I must remember to try to make my thoughts clear the first time around. For example, I did not mean that the tool for measuring shackle height was a bad idea. On the contrary, I can see it being used in quite a few situations, especially in the shop.

What I meant but did not say was: Given what we have seen in this thread, it would probably not help us much on this particular lock. In all honesty, after seeing the design of the Dudley, it does not that appear that the "sticking point" thing would get us further in any reasonable amount of time.

[int3grate]

Im working on a possible solution to these locks, but I need some more information. I need several locks sticking points both counter-clockwise and clockwise down to .5 decimal point. I also need the combinations for these locks. I don't believe you can correctly calculate the combination for these locks, but you can probably find a range of values for each digit in the combination that will generate a list of less than 125 different combinations.

-Int3grate

[Gordon Airporte]

2) A specialized tool for reading thousandths of an inch in shackle position would be of limited to zero use in actual field practice. If you need a to carry around a tool for opening padlocks, try a more generally useful tool such as bolt cutters.

FWIW, I've tried this with a cheap American brand padlock (the kind with the rivet in the center of the dial) and dial calipers and it got me nowhere. The idea being to measure where the gates are by pressing on them with the pawl and using tiny differences in the diameter of the discs to tell you when it's over a gate.
It's a pain to keep pulling up on the shackle while making delicate measurements, so I might not have given it the best shot.

[OrangeCrusader]

Long time no post. Anyone miss me? I know I'm not under the same user name (old one got deactivated from lack of use, or I just forgot too many things about it), so I re-registered with a slightly different one, and my new-er email. Hotmail address is still the same, if anyone wants to make sure that I'm not an Orange_Crusader (or OrangeCrusader, now) impostor.

I started to kind of phase out of picking, but then it was needed (to open a steel cabinet I had accidentaly locked, which contained pretty much my family's entire life in paperwork (citizenship letters, deed to house, etc.). It more or less broke me even. I locked it, but also opened it. It also kicked me back into picking, although lightly. I'll be wavering in and out of here occasionaly, posting if I have something to say or add. But that's another story.

Upon first glance, I would also think that the sticking points would have nothing to do with the combo. Still, it doesn't explain why come of the numbers are different when the points are obtained spinning in the other direction, and constantly so.

I still have my hacked Dudley, and a micrometer (mechanical, measures to hundreds of a cm.), so I can do some rough tests when I have time.

If anyone can make a program that can help with this (narrow down, or solve combos), that would be awesome, but.... Making it available on here gives thousands of people the ability to get into anyone's locker, or personal property, with a bit of work, which isn't what we want here. This automatically puts it into the advanced forums category, which I'm not a part of, and won't be unless I get my lazy behind going, posting here regularily and with quality content. A bit of a dillema there for me, since I don't have much time, so I might be left out of discussion about really cracking these locks, but I'll try. I know rayman (also hasn't posted here lately, at least not on this or the 19th page) is in the advanced forums. I've been in contact with him, and he's also drawn away from picking, but still posts here, AFAIK.

Anyway, keep posting any new advancements or ideas here, I'll check over them and post, and read from the 16th or so page onwards to catch up.

[liuqee]

yah.. i acutally think they're easier then master lock.

has anyone come up with a solution or Do i have to explain my technique?

[digital_blue]

Well, you have mere days if you want to claim my prize.

db

[liuqee]

User has requested post be removed. And in a puff of smoke, there it was... gone!

[liuqee]

O yah one thing to add..... if you dont find the sticking point with friction you might have to trying picking different random number....

let say.. i start with 0 and test all sticking points form 59 to 1 and dont get the second number.....so i could go and start with 30 or 15 or something.

[liuqee]

im naming this after me... im calling this LIUQEE TECHNIQUE...spread the massage