Lock Picking 101 Forum
A community dedicated to the fun and ethical hobby of lock picking.
       

Lock Picking 101 Home
Login
Profile
Members
Forum Rules
Frequent Forum Questions
SEARCH
View New Posts
View Active Topics


Live Chat on Discord
LP101 Forum Chat
Keypicking Forum Chat
Reddit r/lockpicking Chat



Learn How to Pick Locks
FAQs & General Questions
Got Beginner Questions?
Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]


Ask a Locksmith
This Old Lock
This Old Safe
What Lock Should I Buy?



Hardware
Locks
Lock Patents
Lock Picks
Lock Bumping
Lock Impressioning
Lock Pick Guns, Snappers
European Locks & Picks
The Machine Shop
The Open Source Lock
Handcuffs


Member Spotlight
Member Introductions
Member Lock Collections
Member Social Media


Off Topic
General Chatter
Other Puzzles


Locksmith Business Info
Training & Licensing
Running a Business
Keyways & Key Blanks
Key Machines
Master Keyed Systems
Closers and Crash Bars
Life Safety Compliance
Electronic Locks & Access
Locksmith Supplies
Locksmith Lounge


Buy Sell Trade
Buy - Sell - Trade
It came from Ebay!


Advanced Topics
Membership Information
Special Access Required:
High Security Locks
Vending Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room
 

What is it, how does it work? (Sidebar??)

European hardware -lever locks, profile cylinders specific for European locks. European lock picks and European locks.

Postby Chucklz » 5 Apr 2006 10:29

There is a system, I think perhaps by Evva or DOM, where there are elements in cylinder that the key does not interact with. But, if you move while picking, they jam up the cylinder.

P.S. My favorite German lock term is Schloss (padlock/castle).
Chucklz
 
Posts: 3097
Joined: 4 Nov 2003 17:58
Location: Philadelphia

Postby p1ckf1sh » 5 Apr 2006 10:37

mh wrote:I was never good with the German terms (learned all the theory from English sites :) ), but in my mind "Nachschließsicherheit" is security against using a similar key - which means it needs low tolerances and many key variations. Key variations could of course be generated by profile checking balls.

No, "nachschließen" is a general term. The cops and insurance companies use it for any kind of attack that is not destructive to the lock and consists of manipulating the lock itself in order to make the plug rotate, so that could be bumping or actually picking the lock pin by pin or e-picking it etc.. It confused me as well when I first read it.

mh wrote:And then I think "Abtastsicherheit" is security against decoding the lock, means, measuring what key cuts are required etc.

You might be right with that. I considered Abtastsicherheit to be some kind of measure against the using of probes or feeler picks to find binding pins and manipulate them (such as heavy warding etc.). I have seen websites that refer to picks and picksets as "Tastbesteck".

mh wrote:While "Aufsperrsicherheit" would be the security against picking...

Au contraire again, I would consider this to be security against bypassing techniques.

mh wrote:(Not 100% sure about that, though, I might be confused... :) )

Same here.

mh wrote:In fact I find the German terms for this trade are really funny... Like "Falle" for a latch (also translates to 'trap') or "Zuhaltung" for 'locking element' - quite similar to "Zuhaelter" = 'pimp'...

Yes, that is a weird thing in the german language. Traditionally, german has relatively few words, meaning that many words have up to 3 or 4 meanings (take "Lager" = Lager für Dinge/Waren, Lager im mechanischen Sinne (Kugellager etc.), Lager als Aufenthalt (Zeltlager, Gefangenenlager etc.)). That is how we originally started to make up words by just stringing them together (Öldruckzylinderprüfventil :) )...
p1ckf1sh
 
Posts: 711
Joined: 16 Mar 2006 9:55
Location: North Germany, Europe

Postby Chucklz » 5 Apr 2006 10:40

Does nachschließen have the sense of non destructive entry? Something that opens the lock but doesn't damage it? So picking, bypass, bumping and other methods all apply here?
Chucklz
 
Posts: 3097
Joined: 4 Nov 2003 17:58
Location: Philadelphia

Postby mh » 5 Apr 2006 10:45

Chucklz wrote:There is a system, I think perhaps by Evva or DOM, where there are elements in cylinder that the key does not interact with. But, if you move while picking, they jam up the cylinder.


I've seen this
http://wiki.whatthehack.org/images/0/00 ... ntatie.pdf
(page 8: M&C Antiklop)

But the one you mentioned sound even more advanced :twisted:
Any more details?

Chucklz wrote:P.S. My favorite German lock term is Schloss (padlock/castle).


"Schloss" even translates to any kind of lock in general... So it's the most holistic term of German lockpicking :)
mh
Moderator
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: 3 Mar 2006 4:32
Location: Germany

Postby p1ckf1sh » 5 Apr 2006 10:59

Chucklz wrote:Does nachschließen have the sense of non destructive entry? Something that opens the lock but doesn't damage it? So picking, bypass, bumping and other methods all apply here?


Yes. I am not sure about bypassing though. The verbatim is often "Nachschließen des Schlosses" (nachschließen of the lock), so if you open a unlocked door by jamming a card between door and frame to release the latch this is essentially bypassing in the english meaning, but I am not sure if it is nachschließen, because you actually don't touch the lock.
p1ckf1sh
 
Posts: 711
Joined: 16 Mar 2006 9:55
Location: North Germany, Europe

Postby mh » 5 Apr 2006 11:04

Chucklz wrote:Does nachschließen have the sense of non destructive entry? Something that opens the lock but doesn't damage it? So picking, bypass, bumping and other methods all apply here?


I guess asking 2 experts will bring 3 opinions here.

Who has the authority on this? - I doubt the "Duden" (which is considered pretty authorative) contains these words. Don't have one at hand, though.

SSDeV http://www.lockpicking.org - 'the' German lockpicking association calls itself "Sportsfreunde der Sperrtechnik" -
"Sperrtechnik" comes from "Aufsperren" -
not "Sportsfreunde der Nachschliesstechnik" :)

VdS uses "Nachschliessen" also in the context of key / profile variation: http://www.vds.de/pdf/vds5476.pdf

It would be interesting to see what DIN says, but I'm not sure if they touch the topic in DIN 18252 and I also don't know where to get it.

So - in my opinion still "Aufsperren" is the general term for non-destructive entry.

But what the heck... :D
mh
Moderator
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: 3 Mar 2006 4:32
Location: Germany

Postby p1ckf1sh » 5 Apr 2006 11:10

Found something nice:

http://www.schliessanlagen-ab-werk.de/Lexikon.htm

Glossary of lock-related german terms...

Abtastsicherheit
Die Abtastsicherheit ist der Grad der Erschwerung, die Schließkodierung der Zuhaltungen eines Schließzylinders mit geeigneten Hilfsmitteln gewalt- und spurenlos aus dem Schließzylinder zu ermitteln, um nach den festgestellten Werten einen Nachschlüssel anzufertigen.

(Accordingly, "abtasten" is decoding without leaving traces or using brute force or lock disassembly)

Aufsperrsicherheit
Die Aufsperrsicherheit ist der Grad der Erschwerung, die Sperrorgane eines Schließzylinders gewaltlos mit Hilfsmitteln ohne Kenntnis des zugehörigen Schlüssels zerstörungsfrei zu überwinden.

(Accordingly, "aufsperren" is non-destructive bypassing of the locking elements without any knowledge of the key, so based on their definitions picking the lock would be aufsperren)

Nachschließsicherheit
Die Nachschließsicherheit ist der Grad der Erschwerung, den Schließzylinder mit einem anderen als dem zugehörigen Schlüssel zu betätigen.

(Accordingly, "nachschließen" is actually unlocking the lock (rotating the plug) with a key that is not the one cut for this lock)

I am not sure if they are 100% correct, though... I seem to remember seeing a forensic microscope picture of a lock that was e-picked (photo showed the marks left on the pins), published by some insurance company, and they used the term "nachschließen". Someone is inaccurate in their vocabulary here...
p1ckf1sh
 
Posts: 711
Joined: 16 Mar 2006 9:55
Location: North Germany, Europe

Previous

Return to European Locks, Picks and Hardware

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests