Lock Picking 101 Forum
A community dedicated to the fun and ethical hobby of lock picking.
       

Lock Picking 101 Home
Login
Profile
Members
Forum Rules
Frequent Forum Questions
SEARCH
View New Posts
View Active Topics


Live Chat on Discord
LP101 Forum Chat
Keypicking Forum Chat
Reddit r/lockpicking Chat



Learn How to Pick Locks
FAQs & General Questions
Got Beginner Questions?
Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]


Ask a Locksmith
This Old Lock
This Old Safe
What Lock Should I Buy?



Hardware
Locks
Lock Patents
Lock Picks
Lock Bumping
Lock Impressioning
Lock Pick Guns, Snappers
European Locks & Picks
The Machine Shop
The Open Source Lock
Handcuffs


Member Spotlight
Member Introductions
Member Lock Collections
Member Social Media


Off Topic
General Chatter
Other Puzzles


Locksmith Business Info
Training & Licensing
Running a Business
Keyways & Key Blanks
Key Machines
Master Keyed Systems
Closers and Crash Bars
Life Safety Compliance
Electronic Locks & Access
Locksmith Supplies
Locksmith Lounge


Buy Sell Trade
Buy - Sell - Trade
It came from Ebay!


Advanced Topics
Membership Information
Special Access Required:
High Security Locks
Vending Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room
 

RUKO Garant 10, bumpable..??

European hardware -lever locks, profile cylinders specific for European locks. European lock picks and European locks.

RUKO Garant 10, bumpable..??

Postby NeXoz » 21 Aug 2006 18:02

My locksmith friend just told me today that he can bump the ruko garant 10..

It has six pins bottom, and five a five pin side bar..

Here is a link, if that is allowed..
http://www.ruko.dk/visArtikel.asp?artikelID=240

sorry to the mod's if linking to an external site is not allowed..
just delete the post, if it is not..

BUT is it possible to bump open an side bar lock,
with a bumpkey and how?

I know how to bump open a regular 5- and 6-pin, with spoill pins..
but also with a sidebar..?

If figures that the key has to be cut to the lowest,
but is it also the same for the sidebar cut's..?
Nobody is perfect, locks are a "living" proof to that.
So why not just take'em down...
NeXoz
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 2 Aug 2006 19:43
Location: Denmark

Postby Shrub » 21 Aug 2006 18:13

If the sidebar cuts are a set standard for locks from a certain shop or for that region then you simply leave the sidebar cuts and just cut the key as normal,
Shrub
Moderator Emeritus
 
Posts: 11576
Joined: 23 May 2005 4:03
Location: uk

Postby NeXoz » 21 Aug 2006 18:32

hmm.. i've read that some wehere before.. but is it not possible to bump it,
with i side bar also cut to the lowest depth..??
Nobody is perfect, locks are a "living" proof to that.
So why not just take'em down...
NeXoz
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 2 Aug 2006 19:43
Location: Denmark

Yes, and no.

Postby citronitro » 19 Dec 2006 20:28

Hello
Looking round on the internet at what is written it seems that you can bump this lock even though, you do not have the sidebar code.
According to http://www.toool.nl/bumping.pdf they have bumbed the Assa 6000 twin, which works on the same principle.
However it also looks like, that the sidebar design makes bumping more difficult and therefore you cannot expect consistant success.

"Ingeniøren", the danish engineers magazine, had set up a bumping test of all the Ruco locks. This test was cancelled after the Ruko company contacted the locksmith, who was to do the test. This could be taken as evidence of a cover up and that the company well knows, that their locks are not safe
wink:
Meanwhile we are looking foreward to the first video of someone bumping this lock.
Best regards
citronitro
 
Posts: 3
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 18:39

Postby net-rom » 1 Jan 2007 7:46

ther are no set standard for the sidebar cuts thise are as different fom key to key as the "normal" pins are ! i can not say with 100% that this tybe of lock can not be bumpt. . . but ther is only 5 pins in the sidebar (no pin stack) so ther is no bottom pin to transfer the energi and make the top pin jumpe over the shearline ! hope it helps
If it isn't broken . . . fix it until it is !
net-rom
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 2 Dec 2006 5:06
Location: Denmark/næstved

Yes and no.

Postby citronitro » 1 Jan 2007 9:10

Hello
1) Nobody knows for sure how bumping works, as there exists no high velocity cinematographic images of the process.
The theory is that of billiards: If you bump the first ball perfectly into the next, the latter overtakes the kinetic energy and takes off leaving the first ball laying still. By bumping the lock, the first pin stays still, and the second pin flies to the bottom of the bore. The trick is to add a small momentum to the cylinder, so that it starts to turn before the pins comes back to block.
I have not thought this completely through, but the sidebar seems just to be a cheap way of making the secondary pins. If you bump the lock, the bar should also fly to the bottom of its recess releasing the lock on the return. So until somebody can find a hole in my argumentation I will claim that sidebar locks can be bumped, which also seems to be the experience with the Ruko 600 and other sidebar assisted locks.
2) The sidebar can in theory be made individually, but this is too expensive. Therefore in one country there is only a limited amount of sidebars available. So if you are friends with the local locksmith, you can get the sidebar for that town or region.
3) Bumping the sidebar probably depends on the individual lock. Certain sidebars are maybe easy to bump and others are not. Say there is a sidebar cut deep in the first half and shallow in the second half. After the bump, the first half could travel faster because of its smaller mass causing the bar to kink and get stuck in the recess making it bump-resistant.
Conclusion: Sometimes you can easily bump a sidebar lock.
4) If bumping was impossible, why should the Ruko company stop an independent investigation? My theory is that they know perfectly that their locks are unsafe, and therefore they are covering up.
Best regards
citronitro
 
Posts: 3
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 18:39

Further thoughts....

Postby citronitro » 1 Jan 2007 10:22

I have looked more closely at the Ruko Garant, and will refine/correct the argumentation:
Bumping will cause the side pins to fly to the top positions.
When they come down again the cut-out in the pin will pass the bar, which will jump forward stopping the pin in the "lock-open" position.
If all the pins have cut-outs in the same height then I am quite sure, that the sidebar will slide forward no more blocking the cylinder.
If the cut-outs in the pins are very different it gets more complicated.
Say pin number one has a cut-out in the bottom position and pin number two has a cut-out in the top position.
Coming back after bumping, the cut-out in pin number one will tend to release the nearest end of the bar, but the cut-out in pin two has not yet moved down sufficiently, and therefore the bar will not move at all or only a little depending on the tolerances and the wear of the lock.
However if there is a little play and the sidebar can kink there will be a tendency for pin number one to get stuck in the "lock open" position for long enough until pin number 2 and the rest come down and offer their cut-outs to the sidebar.
Because no one knows what happens in bumping one is free to offer the explanation that the pins are oscillating between the top and bottom position after they have been bumped (hopping up and down). This will make it more likely, that bumping can release the sidebar.
Conclusion: I am certain that some of the Garant locks can be consistently bumped. Look also at the brochure. Ruko NEVER calls the GARANT “Bump-safe”!
Best regards
citronitro
 
Posts: 3
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 18:39


Return to European Locks, Picks and Hardware

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest