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different pick and tension wrench materials??

Picked all the easy locks and want to step up your game? Further your lock picking techniques, exchange pro tips, videos, lessons, and develop your skills here.

Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby yanksfan » 24 Apr 2009 10:31

I just went to Lowe's (but Menard's, Home Depot, really any local hardware store will suffice) and got a 22 gauge (I believe) welding sheet, its very strong, pretty flexible, and relatively cheap (I paid maybe $8-9 for a 18in. X 8in. sheet) Anyway, I love it.
They call me Mickey G.
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby unlisted » 24 Apr 2009 10:35

yanksfan wrote: its very strong, pretty flexible, and relatively cheap (I paid maybe $8-9) Anyway, I love it.


Sounds like a cheap hooker to me... :roll: :lol:
New user? Click HERE & HERE & HERE
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby phippoD » 24 Apr 2009 10:57

bahahahahahahahahahaha
nice :lol:
Image
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby M_U_M_P » 27 Apr 2009 1:42

I really like that allen wrench made into a tension wrench Kapu.

Thats nice. A++ IMO.
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby yanksfan » 1 May 2009 10:51

unlisted wrote:
yanksfan wrote: its very strong, pretty flexible, and relatively cheap (I paid maybe $8-9) Anyway, I love it.


Sounds like a cheap hooker to me... :roll: :lol:



Yeah after re-reading it, it kind of does. But I didn't get herpes simplex one from it soooo...
They call me Mickey G.
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby Brian Sandman » 22 May 2009 11:48

Greetings:

Reading over these posts I wonder if the proper techniques are being used
with each choice of Pick/Turning tool ?
Is it a case of using gentle turning pressure or force?
What is the difference with rigid and flexible tools in feedback?
Is there a difference with the technique and material for High Security Locks
and ordinary Pin Tumblers?
In the older Warded locks does the stock material have to be thicker
to overcome the greater spring tension found in the lock?

Brian ..............................................
*************************************
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby adrenalynn » 22 May 2009 12:46

All I can say is that it's something you develop a feel for.

High security locks require much more finesse on the tension than do cheapie locks - which is a good reason to learn on cheapie locks so you can refine your technique for the higher security locks.

Even the weight of the tension tool alone is enough and more for some finicky locks.
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby Brian Sandman » 22 May 2009 13:05

It sure is.
I have found that certain brands require custom made picks and turning tools.
If there is enough knowledge of the specific brand and keyways then a generic profile can be made. Or at least a set of specific profiles custom fit to allow a
greater feedback of information from the picks being used.
Oldkeys dis-used for that brand can be modified for useage as picks. I am Not talking about Master Keying or a Skeleton Key.

Brian ............................................................
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby adrenalynn » 22 May 2009 18:12

>> and turning tools

"Tension Wrench"

>> Oldkeys dis-used for that brand can be modified for useage as picks.

Can I see that?

Oh - you mean a "bump key", not a "pick" Different animals, and never the twain shall meet.
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby Brian Sandman » 22 May 2009 19:15

Greetings adrenalynn:

[Quote]Old keys dis-used for that brand can be modified for useage as picks.
Can I see that?
*****I believe that should go into the restricted section because several places still use antique locks to secure valuables. The risk isn't from outsiders but is from internal clients. Thus it would be unethical to generaly disclose the specifics.
In Canada it is a Criminal offence to modify keys for that use without being a Locksmith. If you attend Locksmith Conventions then access to some Manuals would be possible.

[Quote]Oh - you mean a "bump key", not a "pick" Different animals, and never the twain shall meet.
*****A bump key wouldn't work with a Warded Lock.
Especialy the early models with strong springs.
The levers had serrations to prevent overlifting by any imaginable BumpTechnique.
Current examples of Serrations are on some Prison Locks and high priced Designer baggage and purses. YALE had serrated upper pins in their early model locks circa 1860's
Some of the older European Chest and Wordrobe Cabinents
had exceedingly tough springs. No Loiding with any material would work with those
locks. I speak from personal experience using several ornate and not so ornate models.

Sandman........................................
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby adrenalynn » 22 May 2009 22:27

Yeah - you don't bump a warded lock...

I guess I wasn't clear that you were talking about warded picks.

I can't imagine that warded picks would be advanced. I'd be happy to post pictures of warded picks. Not of too much use. As a locksmith I ran into warded locks in the real world exactly... [carry the one] ummm... Never.

For the most part, opening them is pretty trivial.
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby Brian Sandman » 23 May 2009 11:21

Greetings adrenalynn :

The implicative taint of your post appears to be somewhat demeaning to the
field of warded locks and picking procedures. Correct me if I am wrong?
I don't have that much field experience as others. For several decades I served
my country as a specialist inthe Security Engineering field. That translates
into Locksmithing. There is always room to learn, because I shall never be exposed to the entire field in my lifetime. I also refuse to stop recieving enjoyment from others who are willing to share in their hard earned knowledge and provide insights.


[quote adrenalynn] Yeah - you don't bump a warded lock...
*******Yes you can for specific levers as part of the overall picking strategy...

[quote adrenalynn] I guess I wasn't clear that you were talking about warded picks.
*****Techniques developed for warded pickng have been used as a basis
for follow-on pin tumbler techniques.

[quote adrenalynn] I can't imagine that warded picks would be advanced. I'd be happy to post pictures of warded picks. Not of too much use. As a locksmith I ran into warded locks in the real world exactly... [carry the one] ummm... Never.
*******Of course if a Locksmith hasn't personaly come across any Warded locks in the field then ...is it possible to generalize and make a statement which includes all Lcoksmiths in the field?
Seems like somewhat of a self centered observation.
Of course if one doesn't have direct exposure to a certain aspect of Locksmithing then it couldn't be that important at all.
Could it ?
I just thought this forum was for open minded learning and sharing?
Jerry Finch, the head Instructor at the DOD Intelligence School informed Locksmiths in his Picking Manual (and in person) that certain Warded Lever Lock picking was placed in the advanced High Security section.
Several High Security Warded Lever locks were and are in useage.
OK you are asking where?
Historic sites still use them as part of the original location hardware.
Some foreign Embassies use Warded Locks.
Some Multi-National Corporatins.
How about Prisons and Jails?
Dual locking systems of MEDECO, ASSA et cetera were first used in warded locks
back in the 1880's.


[quote adrenalynn] For the most part, opening them is pretty trivial.
**********Certainly, I must agree on a certain lower plane of exposure.
Allow me to make some observations from real world exposure about the policy
of major Lock Manufacturers. Do they have certain levels of security in their lines, such as A Grade, B Grade and C Grade hardware?
Each with a higher level of manufacture and tolerances? This is done to provide for the most Market flexibility and profit. A customer may want to buy a cheaper lock. But then again another may wish to invest in a high quality expensive model.
Is this the same with motor vehicles?
Do they offer a range of options and prices?
So are you refering to the lowest grade catering to the mass market for a
cheap and low security product?

Coming across the instructions for picking the lowest level of Warded Locks
can't be extended into believing it represents the entire field of Warded Locks.
Instructions for by-pass and Picking techniques for High Security Warded Locks isn't
passed on to the general public.
Although it is passed onto those on a Need -To-Know basis. Ahh...this is a part of procedural security that is part and parcel of lock security. Compartmenting information has been a practice since the early Civilizations such as Sumeria, Babylon, and the Egytian Empire.
Take the former Camp X up here in Oshawa, down the street from me, where they taught Lock Picking back in WW2. Current picks and techniques in use today were developed there back in the 1940's. Also taught was the the modification of commercialy available picks. I won't even mention the improvization of turning tools
and picks from commonly available household materials. Then again that is history
and what can a modern Locksmith learn from the old stuff?


Sandman.........................................
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby adrenalynn » 23 May 2009 13:49

I think perhaps we're running into a difference in labels for things.

If I asked a coworker "hey, hand me that turning tool" - they'd bundle me up and take me to the hospital assuming I'd had a bad fall on my head. A "tension wrench" or "tension tool" would be more common.

A lock that was secured primarily by a lever or multi-lever design, I'd refer to as a "lever lock". Those can be tremendously high security. And in some designs could be bumped.

A lock designed to thwart entry by the chief design criteria of containing wards I'd tend to call a "warded lock". And those aint gonna bump, no matter what you do (unless their spring/tension mechanism was damaged, in which case "bumping" would involve the palm of my hand. ;) )

A lock whose designed relied upon pinstacks of varying height and construction, I'd know as a "pin tumbler" lock, unless it further relied upon sidebars, for example, in which case it'd be a "sidebar lock" or "sidebar-pin lock" or pin-in-pin which I'd tend to refer to as a telescoping pin lock or a "pip" depending upon the company I'm keeping, etc.

If it had wafers, well, predictably it'd be a "wafer lock" unless it was a Protec, in which case it'd be known as "get me the dam'd cutoff wheel" :D

Now maybe we can establish a common language, yours or mine, and have meaningful discourse. I suspect you'll find that this site tends towards using language similar to mine (Protec excepted ;) ) and conversation will be easier if similar definitions are adopted - but hey - I could be wrong.
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby Brian Sandman » 23 May 2009 20:07

This isn't going anywhere....

Sandman...............................................
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Re: different pick and tension wrench materials??

Postby ToolyMcgee » 24 May 2009 20:26

On topic... Quality knives of appropriate thickness. Second hand steak, bread, fruit, and spreading knives. Simmons hollow ground, Robinson USA, Regent or any Sheffield England marked knife not made in china. Solingen Germany doesn't have a factory hockin' out junk knives.

In the broadest view, you don't put a complicated stamp on a cheap knife. You don't put an ornate or inlayed handle on one. No stainless or nickel silver bolster either. Cheap knives cut corners, so it makes good ones easier to spot. Not that these rules are by any means absolute, but a good base set to consider if you choose to go on the hunt.

-Tooly
*blank*
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