Deadbolt: can I get anything better for the price?

[thyyon]

Hi, I'm from the US and am looking for a good deadbolt that won't break the bank. Kick-ins are my primary concern, just based on the fact that I think I've read that it's the most common method of forced entry, however seeing how "easy" picking, bumping, drilling, and other methods are I'd really like to get something that is reasonably resistant to these other methods of entry as well. Of course, at the very least I will also be putting 3-4" screws in the strike plate.

I'm having a hard time trying to decide what deadbolt to choose. I'd love the Medeco Maxum or Abloy but at $170 or more I'm not sure I can really justify spending that much given that my place isn't window-less.

That said, I came across this pre-built "hybrid" Grade 2 deadbolt which uses a Medeco cylinder: http://www.bayarealocks.com/product_inf ... ucts_id=35

$109 is still higher than I'd like, but a little more reasonable to me, especially if it's a good one.

My question is, how good would you say this deadbolt would be, and is there anything better I can get for that price or less?

Thanks!

[Squelchtone]

Dennis from Bay Area Locks is a well known and reputable locksmith, and I like that he offers these packages. This is exactly what we do at my work,
Take an Arrow or Marks deadbolt and get a retrofit Medeco cylinder which makes the lock harder to pick, adds key control, harder to drill, harder to get proper bump keys, but still saves you money from going full bore with a $170-$200 dollar deadbolt.

I'd say go with what you found, if you like exotic stuff, he had the Abloy version listed recently, or send him a message so he can make a lock up from existing stock.

Look into Window Security Laminate Film on Amazon.com which after you apply it on both sides in the same manner as car window tint, it makes your windows break like a car windshield, but bad guys will have hard time reaching in to turn the deadbolt.

Good luck with your project,
Squelchtone

[cledry]

I would use a Grade 1 deadbolt and cylinder of your choice.

[thyyon]

Thanks guys.

I keep going back between getting a $110+ high security lock or just getting something more affordable in the $40 range, like the Arrow E61 or a USCAN or something. It's the classic price vs. performance dilemma. I wish there were stats out there that showed what % of break-ins involved kicking in, drilling, picking, or bumping. My guess is most forced entry of locked doors involves kick-ins, but I don't know that for sure.

Out of curiosity, if you wanted to spend closer to $40 or so, what deadbolt would you get or consider getting? Would you get the pins replaced with mushroom pins?

[Evan]

I am sorry but anyone who puts a $200 lock on the average residential exterior door is just wasting their money... This topic has come up a few times in the past couple of years... If you are going to go the physical upgrade in hardware route you need to penetration proof every door and window accessible at ground level on your home...

Let's for a moment say you went with the fancy Medeco deadbolt for your front door but did nothing to upgrade the french doors/sliding door from your dining room out to your deck ? Well you may have stopped some amateurs buy a real burglar is going to go in the weakest opening...

There is no lock that can be applied to a typical residential door that will magically make it much more difficult to burst through... So you aren't talking about just a lock, you need a better solid core door, more secure hinges (continuous security hinge is the best) some armor plates for the strike side of the door with holes in the correct places for the latch and deadbolt (two three inch screws right at the bolt don't hold near as long as 12 screws spread out over the height of the door frame)... And that is EACH door... Then window film as Squelchtone suggested...

If you don't feel your home is safe, it is much cheaper to leave things just as the are and install an alarm system perhaps with a CCTV camera or two than it is to go the physical hardening route...

~~ Evan

[GWiens2001]

Kerti has a solution for someone trying to kick in your door. That ought to do the trick.

Gordon

[ARF-GEF]

Yeah, just make sure your door can support that weight

[thyyon]

I would use a Grade 1 deadbolt and cylinder of your choice.

Which Grade 1 would you recommend?

[Squelchtone]

You wont find much Grade 1 for $40 unless you settle for Home Depot Schlage, which is lower quality than the Schlage you get when you get when you walk into a local locksmith shop. Expect $60 and up for Grade 1 single sided deadbolt from Schlage, Arrow, or Marks. But know that for the extra $20 bucks, you'll be bringing home a lock of much better quality than the big box store consumer models, which claim to be Grade 1, but are really Grade 2 with only some parts being rated as Grade 1. Make sure you buy the correct backset for your door, residential is normally 2-3/8 inch, commercial doors are 2-3/4 inch.

For a base price of $60, you'll get the lock as is, I don't think the locksmith is going to want to take time to put in spool pins for you unless you pay a little extra or the lock happens to be sub assembled and you can ask them to put spool pins in while they are keying it up. Also ask for high-low-high bitting.

Hope that helps,
Squelchtone

[globallockytoo]

I am somewhat surprised and disappointed how many posters here continue to sing the praises of Medeco, given it's issues and qualities and the quantity of discussions and videos online about it's shortcomings. There are plenty, far more effective high security products that are as competitively priced. Why do you suppose that Medeco is only sold in North America? Because the product does not meet international expectations in that class.

If you want to secure your door from kick ins. you need to reinforce the door frame. There are multiple products on the market to do so. I like to use and recommend the Strikemaster 11 Pro. It is simple to install and very effective to prevent kick ins and repair busted frames (without replacing door frame). Consequently it is very cost effective (inexpensive). It really doesnt matter what super duper lock you put on your door if the frame is weak.

[Squelchtone]

I am somewhat surprised and disappointed how many posters here continue to sing the praises of Medeco, given it's issues and qualities and the quantity of discussions and videos online about it's shortcomings.

Yeah yeah, we know you love BiLock and can't stand Medeco. All we are recommending the guy is locks he can get for a decent price and for his budget. (this usually means wholesale or used on ebay, and there's plenty of used but not abused Medeco on ebay for less than half the retail price) What are the issues you are talking about? The ones from Marc's book about different tricks one can do to get a screw driver into the keyway or defeat key control by copying the keys onto credit card plastic? I'm sure you can do that to many other locks as well.

My point being that just because in the last 5 years locksport hobbyists and security researchers demystified the fact that yes, you can pick a Medeco lock and yes there are other things you can do to bump or bypass them, doesn't suddenly bring their manufacturing or Grade 1 quality down to Schlage or Kwikset's. It's still a well made solid lock and still a pain to pick open quickly; it's just not as perfect or impervious as it had been thought or advertized for over 25 years.

I agree on the door frame protection products, another one to look into is Door Jamb Armor, or even good old Don Jo wrap around protectors like these: http://www.don-jo.com/catalog/pdf_catal ... ectors.pdf

my 2 cents
Squelchtone

[miguelmonk]

Hello, everyone!

I found this thread after a few hours of reading, and it matches my questions well enough, as well as being very recent. So, rather than start a new thread, I'll just ask my related questions here.

After viewing even more videos on bumping locks, I have come to realize that I may just be wasting my money on high-security locks for my residence (an upstairs condo unit). Even a Mul-T-Lock pin-in-pin lock can be bumped in a few seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yktyMbhEDEE. I have a dual-pane window a few feet from the door, so if they really want in, I cannot stop them, but my ADT monitored alarm should make them work quickly. I cannot use window security film because it can make the dual-pane windows crack due to heat. My door is 1 3/4" thick, 2 3/8" backset, Stanley metal-clad.

Finally, my questions. What is the cost of two Schlage B660 non-Primus deadbolts in Satin Chrome or Satin Nickel finish? Are there additional pins (mushroom or Ilco Bump Halt with stronger spring...if they even fit a B660) that can help against bumping, or is my ONLY option to go with Primus out of the so-far-recommended Medeco, Mul-T-Lock, and Schlage locks?

If you are bored and want to know how strong the frame should be now, read on. Otherwise, the above should suffice.

Thank you!

Gregg

Door frame hardening:

I have massively reinforced my frame on both sides, including 3/8" and 1/4" plywood filling the air gap between door frame and building 2x4s on both sides (glued to the door frame and going back 4" in the gap, screwed to both the door frame and the 2x4s with 3" screws, with metal plates sandwiched in between), a Home Depot "Armored Security Strike Plate" for each lock (screwed inside directly onto two 2x4s with 3" screws plus the other two 3" screws on the box flanges), and an 11" long security strike plate that covers both armored strike plates. The metal plates and plywood in the former air gap are even screwed through to the frame and 2x4s outside of the door opening (of course, I'll spackle and paint to cover all holes). On the hinge side, there is a 2' long x 4" deep x 1/4" thick plywood plank and two steel mending plates at the top and middle hinge, but only the plywood and one metal plate at the bottom due to a smaller air gap. I think a heavy battering ram is not going to break the door frame. Too much plywood and metal to shear.

I ordered some Mini Door Shields from armorconcepts.com to strengthen the door at the locks and a set to try to do the same at the hinges. A Don-Jo door wrap-around would not fit due to the design of my metal-clad door...the 2 3/8" backset is measured from the wood core, but the door's metal wrap around that pinches onto the core adds just enough to prevent the Don-Jo from fitting.

[ARF-GEF]

Hi Gregg

What is the cost of two Schlage B660 non-Primus deadbolts in Satin Chrome or Satin Nickel finish? Are there additional pins (mushroom or Ilco Bump Halt with stronger spring...if they even fit a B660) that can help against bumping, or is my ONLY option to go with Primus out of the so-far-recommended Medeco, Mul-T-Lock, and Schlage locks?

I have no idea about the local price for them, you should call around the local lockies.
No I don't think they have mushroom pins in most of them.
You are I believe a bit too fatalist about bumping when it comes to high security locks. A multilock is very hard to bump. In fact most of the bump keys I met won't really work. Multilock also has a multitude of profiles so it's much more of a challenge than a youtube vid shows you.
Let's just say there are a lot of videos on youtube which don't show the whole picutre (eg the 30 unsuccesful attempts or the several hours of practice).

A schalge Primus is not a bad lock at all for an average household though. IMO Medecos are overpriced when we consider that they are not really so high security (especially compared to many European locks of the same category (high end DOM, EVVA, KABA...).
If I lived in the US I too would probably avoid medeco, though admittedly this is a bit of a taste question as well. I would probably go for a shcalge Primus which is (as far as I know) cheaper than a medeco, but offers quite a nive lever of security for a home user.
(Well who am I kidding if I lived in the US I would probably use a ridiculous unnecessary overkill lock as I use now as well.)

So I believe a schalge Grade 1 with a primus (or the new top primus XP 29) core in it should be a good choice. It has no mushroom pins and no bumps stop pins as far as I know, but since the key profile is protected and due to the sidebar mechanism bumping threat is significantly lower than with most other locks in the similar range. Not impossible if they have the right blank but altogether that offers quite a challange for an average thug.

Also I agree with the resoning that there is nto much point in getting a very expensive high security lock if the door is right next to an unprotected window.
I would defo look into the matter of shatter proof foil on the window, despite what you said, and if the deadblot is within reachabel distance from the window be sure to get a deadbotl with double cylinders (so it requires a key on both sides) Keep the key near but not right in the lock so the bad guys can't just reach in turn the key in the lcok (or the handle) and get in.

Since this is not really directly related to this thread please start a new thread next time, (unless your question is really very-very close to the question we already discuss in that thread )
Maybe a mod will move it to a separate thread anyways.

[zeke79]

The benefit of the primus is not really security. In principle the security is great, in the real world it is flawed in most cases. The problem you will run into is that the locksmith you buy the primus from will likely only have one or two sidebar profiles which is what gives the lock its security. This means that basically half of his primus customers will have the same sidebar as you do. Of course you could buy your own primus sidebar sequence and no one in your region would have that sidebar but who wants to dump a couple thousand dollars on that.

The upside of primus is that you can add a level of key control very reasonably. The fact that the primus blanks will enter and operate a standard sc1 keyway lock allows you to put primus cylinders in your deadbolt and standard sc1 cylinders in the knobsets which will save you about $75 each. To me, this is the biggest selling point of the primus system which unfortunately was done away with when they went to everest primus.

Just a heads up on this, if you want drill protection on your primus locks you have to purchase the UL437 version of the primus. There is a version that is not drill protected at all.

Also, before you decide to put in a double cylinder deadbolt check your local fire safety rules. It might be illegal to do in a residence. Not that you can't do it but if there is a fire and someone is hurt/killed it can come back on you.

Personally if it were me and I was going to buy a system for it's security I would choose abloy or bilock for the simple matter of they are great products that i have never had to work on when i use them. Primus doesnt work well with dust, dirt, or debris and have seen locks use in the oil field that have had to have the sidebars removed to keep the locks operational. Medeco is just a lock that has never really appealed to me for some reason. The idea is genius but it comes at such a pita factor that i dont want anything to do with it.

[ARF-GEF]

The problem you will run into is that the locksmith you buy the primus from will likely only have one or two sidebar profiles which is what gives the lock its security. This means that basically half of his primus customers will have the same sidebar as you do.

I was aware of this, but I thought this is primarily a concern for (bigger) masterkey systems. (where it makes it does make it much easier to escalate rights.)
My thought was: without doubt, it's a possible problem, but my idea was that for a "normal" house the security is "bleeding from so many wounds" (in this case unsecured windows for example) that I did not found the possibility of repeated sidebar coding to be too much of an issue.
Plus I thought abusing the sidebar coding is a rather sophisticated attack, not too typical of the average criminal who kicks in the door or so.
So while this is undoubtedly something to consider, do you think this is (or should be) a concern to average home users? (I mean this as a genuine question, not rhetorical one . This is something I myself was vacillating on. )


So I agree that is is not really top of the range high security (not comparable to bilock or abloy as you mentioned), but I thought in this case cost was a more important factor than truly high security. (Abloy and bilock level)

Admittedly this was a subjective opinion based on those 2 presumptions (no need for too high security, the importance of a low price). No doubt the Primus is not an equal to either Bilock or Abloy. He would get much better lock with highr security with bilock or abloy. (Momentarily my personal taste would pull me to Bilock to be honest, but that is really just that: a question of taste.)

Good points about the fire code and the drill protection. The fire code didn't really cross my mind, here everyone has double cylinders in the door and most of the people just keep the keys close to the door at a fixed position "in case there's fire".

[Medeco]The idea is genius but it comes at such a pita factor that i dont want anything to do with it.

My thoughts exactly.
It's such a shame when a great idea gets executed in a unsatisfactory way.