Duplicate Resistant Locks

[Squelchtone]

They are Best style SFIC cores as confirmed by the locksmith I am working with.

How greatly would the security suffer by having the place "maison keyed" using the Abloy Protec2 system? The locksmith mentioned that a risk of maison keying is that you reduce the combinations in your system by what opens the security doors. He also noted that the more advanced systems have a greater number of combinations and are affected less.

what are you trying to get maison keyed? it should only be 1 door like the lobby door, or let's say a common key like to the pool area. I dont' believe you'd get an entire place maison keyed. And yes, that means most people's keys would have a couple of the cuts be the same. Look into something with a sidebar which is the same for the entire facility and will give you some key copying protection because the blanks wont be available at your local hardware store. and if you need a particular door or gate to be on a key anyone's key can open, consider a prox fob system for that door and each key you issue comes with a prox fob on the key ring which opens that 1 door that needs to be maison keyed.

[cledry]

Where are they getting these keys copied? Most hardware stores only stock the A keyway of Best blanks, unless they are going to a locksmith.

It sounded like they're using a Best IC system but the cores are Schlage.

Most Schlage SFIC I run across are in Best keyways. If he had Schlage Everest I don't think he would have the problem he has with duplicates.

Since Best are not patented or restricted, most locksmiths copy them freely. The DO Not Copy etc. is not really a deterrent.

[jaconm]

The maison keyed locks would be on the exterior doors when they are locked after the desk closes.

[Evan]

Hi there:

I own a small 30ish room hotel. We currently have Schlage locks on all doors but they're the figure 8 shaped cores which can be popped out.

The doors all have Best style cores, but are set up with Schlage keys currently.

They are Best style SFIC cores as confirmed by the locksmith I am working with.

All of these statements in total contradict each other, please post a picture of the lock cylinder or an example of a key with the bitting partially concealed... A key can either be a BEST key and be duplicated or a Schlage key and be duplicated but Schlage SFIC keys are generally keyways which are not available for casual key duplication so it sounds like you have a LFIC system until you post pictures which prove otherwise...

We have had a serious problem lately of people making illegal duplicates of room keys and coming back and robbing people who stay in the rooms after them. We apprehended someone with copied keys a few months ago.

Yes this is a serious problem in lodging type facilities which is why most every motel and hotel out there now uses some type of card access system...

I am looking for a key system which can easily replace these Schlage keys and is resistant to copying. Our local locksmith suggested Medeco replacement cores. He said they are less secure than some options but are cheaper.

The real issue is the economy of having to deal with replacement of keys when they get lost... This happens in the lodging industry and it is entirely unreasonable that you place a financial burden on your guests if they lose a key for furnishing you a replacement...

The self service kiosks are interesting to mention. We have key chains permanently attached to the key with the name and picture of the hotel on it (obviously without the room number.) 20 Years ago I took these into a few stores and tried getting copies and they were all unwilling to copy them with the hotel logos all over it. If they can do it themselves then this means nothing now.

Attaching something to a physical key is meaningless if the key is so common that the guests could be quietly originating their own copies of the keys in their rooms with a blue punch duplicator... You should seriously investigate investing in an electronic access control system...

My locksmith wants me to go with the Abloy Protec2 system. I am only interested because we market ourselves as a very high end modern hotel. I actually think handing a guest one of those curious looking keys would fit well with the experience we're trying to provide. Have you ever heard of ProTec2? How does it compare?

Your locksmith is hoping you are a fool... Not only would replacing lost keys become much more expensive, it would be something you would become totally dependent on that locksmith or another authorized Abloy dealer with that keyway profile to provide you replacement cylinders/cores at whatever price they deem reasonable... A neat modern looking key makes a really neat momento of their stay...

How greatly would the security suffer by having the place "maison keyed" using the Abloy Protec2 system? The locksmith mentioned that a risk of maison keying is that you reduce the combinations in your system by what opens the security doors. He also noted that the more advanced systems have a greater number of combinations and are affected less.

If people loose keys it's always been clear that they have to pay for replacement. We don't have much loss though. When we have had cases of lost keys we have replaced the cores ourselves with spare ones we keep on hand.

We'll have three key levels. A master that opens everything only to be checked out during shift by the cleaning staff, a staff master which will be issued to the full time staff needing global access to everything except the guest rooms, finally the individual room keys which will open the rooms and the security doors in front and back of the building. Each will come with a key loss policy.

Having "maison keyed" exterior doors would be foolish... Not only will you not be able to disable specific lost keys from those common entry locks without rekeying the entire hotel each time a key is lost, you would be opening a can of worms liability wise because you would understand this when you ask for such a keying specification and would therefore understand the cost of rekeying when a room key is lost it would mean new keys for the entire place to properly ensure an adequately safe environment is being provided...

If you absolutely insist on some type of mechanical key replacement locks it would be better for you to just have the exterior locks be SKD sets so you are able to rekey them whenever a key is lost or you suspect someone has a duplicate... Cheap key rings to hold the two keys together are cheaper in a box of a thousand than it would be to rekey the entire building once to prevent being sued for failure to secure your premises if someone was attacked in a hallway after a room key went missing...

Your plans for your keying system design are way way over thought out... You should only need one level of master key for a facility so small... And that key should really only be used in emergencies and provided for the AHJ in a proper lockbox as required by code or be in the possession of the person-in-charge and otherwise be kept locked up when not in use...

30 rooms is small enough that you should be using key rings with copies of each room key rather than giving out master keys... Do you really need a "master" key for the staff areas ? Do all staff have access to all non-guest areas of the hotel or are there special areas where some people shouldn't be allowed to access ? You can accomplish this in a small keying system using pre-planned controlled cross keying rather than adding an additional level of master keying...

In your situation I wouldn't even consider using mechanical locks where you provide hard keys to your guests... You should look at a stand alone access control system like the Best Access Systems B.A.S.I.S.

You would provide your guests with swipe card keys which are programmed to expire on the day of their anticipated checkout at the checkout time unless they extend their stay and have their cards reprogrammed... Lost cards can be deactivated by swiping the replacement card in the lock (even for a master level access card) if you have your access database programmed for that functionality...

This seems to me to be the only real choice available to you which would allow you to provide real security and safety without costly replacement of keys when they are lost... It also allows you more flexibility for accommodating conferences or school groups where a guest in a position of authority over the group might require the ability to access multiple guest rooms quickly without the need for carrying a separate key for each room... Such concepts are impossible with keyed locks...

You could install the access control locksets and reserve the use of the key override feature for actual emergencies or failure of the electronic aspect of the locks for repair purposes...

~~ Evan

[Q3b]

well I would recommend medeco over schlage locks ANYTIME for medeco you would have to have a card that the person attempting to duplicate the keys must have if he/she were to duplicate them at the locksmiths.
The olny way that they would be able to duplicate them is if they had a medeco key cutter or they had a real good locksmith friend who would cut them for them but im not to shure
NOTE it might cost you more than usual to duplicate medeco keys then schlage non Everest/primus keys so ...
I hope I helped

[buddykiller]

In your situation I wouldn't even consider using mechanical locks where you provide hard keys to your guests... You should look at a stand alone access control system like the Best Access Systems B.A.S.I.S.

You would provide your guests with swipe card keys which are programmed to expire on the day of their anticipated checkout at the checkout time unless they extend their stay and have their cards reprogrammed... Lost cards can be deactivated by swiping the replacement card in the lock (even for a master level access card) if you have your access database programmed for that functionality...

This seems to me to be the only real choice available to you which would allow you to provide real security and safety without costly replacement of keys when they are lost... It also allows you more flexibility for accommodating conferences or school groups where a guest in a position of authority over the group might require the ability to access multiple guest rooms quickly without the need for carrying a separate key for each room... Such concepts are impossible with keyed locks...

You could install the access control locksets and reserve the use of the key override feature for actual emergencies or failure of the electronic aspect of the locks for repair purposes...

~~ Evan

this is the advice i would take if i where op. the only set back i can perceive would be the initial cost, however, as op is considering installing an abloy protec2 system, i can't see how that would be an issue. also, it will save op money in the long run due to the lost/souvenir key cost. also, it would negate the hassle of a master key (or heaven forbid the grand master key) going missing. the electronic system, for a lodging facility, just makes so much more sense and an attacker would have to be much more savvy when attacking than one using a traditional lock and key system (obviously this excludes the protec2). outfitting a lodging facility with an abloy (or any other high cost, high security pin tumbler lock for that matter) system just sounds asinine to me. an office building, sure, but a hotel?

[billdeserthills]

I wanna say the loud, funny words too,
The smaller hotels I have dealt with in the past deal with this problem
by regularly switching all the locks around. Actually you don't need to swap the lock bodies, only the outer knob
with the key lock. This is fairly easy, at least I know they manage without problems, and the main cost apart from
the minute it takes to turn a key & depress a retainer is switching the key tags on all the keys. Your hotel sounds like
it is doing very well if you are prepared to invest the thousands it will cost to re-vamp your situation. Please do yourselves
a favor and don't pick a system that locks you into working with only one company. I have seen that a few times and it is sad
when folks get greedy and find they have the power to turn the screw(raise your prices at will). The couple
of hotels in my area don't seem to make a lot of profit, so maybe that is why they are sooo cheap...

[globallockytoo]

I own a small 30ish room hotel. We currently have Schlauge locks on all doors but they're the figure 8 shaped cores which can be popped out.

We have had a serious problem lately of people making illegal duplicates of room keys and coming back and robbing people who stay in the rooms after them. We apprehended someone with copied keys a few months ago.

I am looking for a key system which can easily replace these Schlauge keys and is resistant to copying. Our local locksmith suggested Medeco replacement cores. He said they are less secure than some options but are cheaper.

Is it true that someone would have trouble getting copies of Medeco keys? How hard is it to bump or pick Medeco locks?

Thanks!

Bilock make a retro fit cylinder that can be inserted in a LFIC housing. Bilock are virtually impossible to duplicate, thanks to the moving element in the key. All keys are original and not able to be duplicated without dedicated machinery.

There are many examples of Medeco being bumped and picked and comparitively fewer of a Bilock being picked.