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Master #17 is getting the best of me

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby pensarepink » 19 Jul 2016 12:40

I hate to admit it, but this is the beginners’ forum after all. I’m relatively new to lock picking. I’ve been taking a slow and methodical approach to learning to pick following bosnianbills advice about starting with a Master #3 and progressing to 5-pin lock without security pins like the Master #17. I’d really like this to be more than a party trick, so I’ve been sticking with the picking of this lock for about three weeks. I practice most nights for a hour or so.

In preface, I’ve done the progressively pinned lock bit. I’ve started with one pin and progressed up to five. I thought I had a pretty good handle on what a binding pin felt like and what a non-binding pin felt like.

In truth I’ve become very discouraged and am about ready to give up. I thought at some point it might be the lock, the bitting might be too hard for me, so I got another Master #17. I can’t SPP that one either nor can I rake it. I have found that the first pin binds first. I can set that consistently. Other than that I am having trouble getting any feel from the lock. The pins don’t seem to bind. I’ve tried heavy tension and that just causes everything to jam. Medium tension still does not seem to get me any binding pins. I also can’t tell when or if I’ve set some of the other pins. Things won’t necessarily feel different or the feeling will be very, very subtle. Ambiguous at best. Pins two and three may set next but I’m not sure. I don’t know I’ve set anything until I release the tension and hear three or sometimes even four pins fall. What am I missing?

I've watched several YT videos to see other people pick it.

I’m not looking for or expecting anyone to tell me how to pick this lock. I guess I’m just looking for some encouraging words as I really don’t want to quit this hobby. How long should I practice on a lock before I set it aside? Is working an hour a day for several weeks without success normal? Am I some kind of newbie freak? If I do set it aside what type/kind of lock do I work on next? I have a Wilson Bohannan waiting but I’m fairly sure I can’t pick that if I can’t pick a Master #17. I'm nothing but frustrated at this point. What am I learning if I just keep doing the same thing over and over again?

I know I’m setting myself up for bit of ridicule for posting that I can’t pick a simple 5-pin lock. Everyone on here seems to run where I can hardly crawl.

I’m using a Peterson gem (0.025). I’ve tried top of key way tension and that just seems to complicate things more.

TL;DR:

Can't pick a Master #17
Help a newbie out?
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Re: Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby Robotnik » 19 Jul 2016 14:31

Short answer? You're fine, just stay with it. We all started somewhere, and we all have locks that give us trouble.

You mentioned working with a progressive-pinned practice lock. That's an excellent place to start - pick it in every configuration you can think of. Don't get too hung up on struggling with a single lock; sounds like you're doing fine.

Specific to the 17, it is a smaller keyway, which could be contributing to your difficulties. Experiment with different tension tools and positions to free up as much room for yourself as possible.
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Re: Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby nine4t4 » 19 Jul 2016 15:06

No ridicule. This is supposed to be an informative and supportive site. I may joke or seem irreverent but that's only because I don't take life too seriously. And even if I do say something mockingly, it's the situation not you.

1)The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. It sounds like you're feeling how true that is.

2) I assume you have a working key. We don't always score a key with our locks but it does help us not go insane trying to pick a lock that was never going to open

3) I don't know what your definition of 'medium' tension is but it may not be enough. When I started I used super light tension because someone said "use the lightest tension possible" (should have said practical). I could open locks but I never had those distinct clicks that you hear in picking videos. Eventually I started using heavier tension and things went much better

3b) Some padlocks have strong return springs and you need to overcome that. Start with heavy tension so that two pins bind up and then ease off until you're back to one. I was amazed at how much more tension was needed for padlocks than conventional door locks (which require very little)

4) Some simple locks will kick your ass, and sometimes you'll pick advanced locks easily. We all know that Master's aren't exactly 'precision made'. Most of their locks are in the middle of the bell curve for Master locks. But, in the same way that they'll accidentally make a lock that is too easy, once in a while they accidentally make a lock that is actually good. You may have a #17 that's a good mutation

5) Lock picking is like playing guitar. Your left hand and right hand are doing different things but they need to be in sync. You also need to learn strumming and fingering as different parts of the whole. The importance of tensioning isn't given enough weight.

6) Step away from the lock. Break the non-productive loop. Pick the other locks, and don't look at the #17 for a day or two. As frustration sets in, you don't think clearly and aren't paying attention to what you're doing. Sometimes that little break is all it takes to have a fresh approach. That's why we have confidence locks (the one's you know you can pick easily).

7 or 6b) look up 'fail videos' on youtube. Those are people that thought they could do something, recorded their failure and then UPLOADED it for the world to see. So, having one lock mess with you isn't a big deal. I have a Master lock that I still have problems SPP'ing. I can rake it in a second, I can pick much better locks that use security pins in a minute or two, and that one still screws with me. You're not having problems picking you're having problems with THAT ONE LOCK. Life goes on

8) Try a different attack. I don't know what tools you have, but if you have stuff other than the Gem, like rakes, try those. If all you have is the Gem, try zipping the lock. If you have a diamond, you can scrub the lock to set a few pins than then attack specific pins. Failing that , pick it by randomly working your pick in the lock

9) Think POSITIVE!!!! It seems stupid and like it shouldn't matter, but there is a world of difference between "I wish" and "I will". You have to visualize the inside of the lock anyway, you may as well visualize it opening.

10) It's a hobby. If you give it too much importance you're just making a mountain out of mole hill. We all get stumped once in a while, and you need to let it go. This isn't something where you need to complete a task before you move on, it's not a karate belt. Skip the lock, get others and have fun.
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Re: Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby sisk » 19 Jul 2016 16:04

I have found that the first pin binds first. I can set that consistently. Other than that I am having trouble getting any feel from the lock. The pins don’t seem to bind.


That sounds like you're oversetting the first pin to me. Just saying.

Anyway, stick with it. Lock picking is a difficult skill to master and it takes a lot of time. At some point it's just going to click for you and you'll get it, but until then keep at it. I had a lock like that a while back, a WB that for some reason defied me for weeks even after I was able to pick 6 pin locks with security pins, but the more you work on it the easier it gets. I'd also suggest picking some other locks too.

Above all, make sure you keep a pile of locks that you know you can pick but are close enough to your current skill level that they don't seem to fall open. When you start to get discouraged put whatever lock is frustrating you down and grab one from your pile of confidence builders. Believe me, that's important. I've actually got a lock that's got me reaching for my confidence builders daily right now, which is kinda funny since I've got another lock of the exact same model in the pile of confidence builders. I'd be tempted to give up too if I didn't have that pile of moderately challenging but well within my skill level locks to build my confidence back up.
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Re: Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby billdeserthills » 19 Jul 2016 18:18

Why not properly teach yourself how to pick a pin tumbler lock the easy way, before jumping in with a five-pin lock?
Most successful lock pickers begin with a common household lock and remove several top and corresponding bottom
pins. That way you can learn proper tension on a lock with just two pins in it. When you get good at that, just put in
another bottom & top pin and you'll be challenged again, and so on until all the pins are back in the lock. You will learn
a lot more, especially about proper tension and about what does & doesn't work when picking a pin tumbler lock.

Also do yourself a little favor and give your lock a spritz of spray lubricant
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Re: Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby insatiableOne » 22 Nov 2016 7:07

This is one of the reasons why I joined here.

I started with the Southord st-23 (the lock in a box progressive set) Then went on to master #3, #5, #1

Same deal, this #17 kicking me around a bit. Did opren it once..mainly by luck. Tried picking up the Wilson Bohannon instead, that was a worse mistake. Difficult to get to the pins.

I can relate a bit from the prior post, as I see super light tention works with the Southord set vs. the padlocks. The first three masters are not much of a chalange any longer.
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Re: Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby Silverado » 22 Nov 2016 8:13

Do not fear coming here and asking questions, no one is going to ridicule you or think less of you regardless of what you can and/or cannot pick.
While I cannot speak for everyone (because they're not me and I'm not them) but I feel like everyone here has a lot of respect for the community and each member.
I've learned more here in the past few months than I have learned "hacking" my way through lockpicking without any sound advice for years. I got the MIT Guide to Lockpicking and a small Majestic pickset when I was young and blindly flailed through it for a really long time.
It was after I spent the past two years or so watching every single Bosnian Bill and Lockpicking Lawyer (you guys are my heroes :lol: ) YouTube upload I realized I was doing a lot wrong.
Then I came here and learned even more.
Even though I have defeated some tricky stuff there is definitely a pile of locks sitting here that defeat me every single time (even cheap-o crappy ones).

One of the most important things you have to learn in lockpicking is patience. Don't get discouraged!!
"If you are not currently on a government watch list. You are doing something wrong" - GWiens2001
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Re: Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby xSxAintNobody » 23 Nov 2016 15:15

I started picking in August. I have 14 locks total. Of those 14, I can open six. With a little fear of sounding redundant, I say this:

I've found having multiple locks helpful. What you can't learn from one, another will teach you. I started a game, so to lessen the stress of my failure. Every morning, as part of my daily routine, I pick those six lock first, with my confidence ramped up I attack the other eight, in hopes of having seven to pick the next morning.

Try not to make having fun such a task :D
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Re: Master #17 is getting the best of me

Postby insatiableOne » 23 Nov 2016 19:35

Taking all this advice read here, Thank You all by the way.

The Wilson Bohannon does not like me yet either, so I picked up the Abus n:55/40. Low and behold am popping it open pretty darn consistently in a short time frame to boot. I think it requires the extra light tention that The Southord kit seems to favor.

Am at the moment giving the master 150 a shot, am getting somewhat close, not yet though.

Then perhaps this big hunk of metal will meet its match. The Bohannon was mingy when arived and worked a buch of graphite into it, now it is difficult to feel the pins.

Thanks, again.
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