Lock Picking 101 Forum
A community dedicated to the fun and ethical hobby of lock picking.
       

Lock Picking 101 Home
Login
Profile
Members
Forum Rules
Frequent Forum Questions
SEARCH
View New Posts
View Active Topics


Live Chat on Discord
LP101 Forum Chat
Keypicking Forum Chat
Reddit r/lockpicking Chat



Learn How to Pick Locks
FAQs & General Questions
Got Beginner Questions?
Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]


Ask a Locksmith
This Old Lock
This Old Safe
What Lock Should I Buy?



Hardware
Locks
Lock Patents
Lock Picks
Lock Bumping
Lock Impressioning
Lock Pick Guns, Snappers
European Locks & Picks
The Machine Shop
The Open Source Lock
Handcuffs


Member Spotlight
Member Introductions
Member Lock Collections
Member Social Media


Off Topic
General Chatter
Other Puzzles


Locksmith Business Info
Training & Licensing
Running a Business
Keyways & Key Blanks
Key Machines
Master Keyed Systems
Closers and Crash Bars
Life Safety Compliance
Electronic Locks & Access
Locksmith Supplies
Locksmith Lounge


Buy Sell Trade
Buy - Sell - Trade
It came from Ebay!


Advanced Topics
Membership Information
Special Access Required:
High Security Locks
Vending Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room
 

Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Bricago » 2 Mar 2017 20:08

I came across this passage from the Time Life book, Home Security, published in 1979: "A five-pin lock is difficult to pick, but lockmakers have devised even more intricate puzzles to stump the expert criminal. One manufacturer bevels the pins and the key notches so that the key not only raises the pins, but rotates them; unless each pin is oriented correctly, the plug cannot move. Another [manufacturer] puts three rows of pins in each cylinder and three rows of notches on the key."

I'm curious about which two manufacturers this refers to. It's hard to visualize what they're describing. If anyone has any links to this forum or elsewhere that illustrates these features, I'd appreciate the help.

Thank you.
Bricago
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2017 10:22

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Jacob Morgan » 2 Mar 2017 20:18

The first reference is probably to Medeco, or could be Emhart given the year.

The second reference, to three rows might be a dimple lock or maybe a cruciform lock, but not sure.
Jacob Morgan
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 571
Joined: 30 Dec 2015 21:31
Location: KY (north west)

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby GWiens2001 » 2 Mar 2017 21:02

The second lock sounds like a Wise Lock. That would have three "notches" in the key.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Squelchtone » 2 Mar 2017 21:48

My money is on the DUO for the 2nd one
Image
User avatar
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11307
Joined: 11 May 2006 0:41
Location: right behind you.

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby GWiens2001 » 2 Mar 2017 23:22

The Duo has three sets of cuts, but has wafers, not pins. Now that I think of it, three rows of pins and three rows of notches in the keys... sounds like an early Keso.

When did Sargent start with their Keso line?

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Jacob Morgan » 2 Mar 2017 23:31

In favor of Keso, I am not sure when The Complete Guide to Locks and Locksmithing started covering high security locks, but Medeco and Keso were in the high security lock section and the Time-Life researches probably consulted that book as it was the locksmithing book in libraries.

That Time-Life book was in my hometown library, and I checked it out a few times back in the 1980's. The sad thing is that it went over how to strengthen door jams in a lot of detail, one thing that would help a lot that building contractors still ignore. Not sure what to think about the chapter on how to rent gas bottles so as to weld together bars for one's windows.
Jacob Morgan
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 571
Joined: 30 Dec 2015 21:31
Location: KY (north west)

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby peterwn » 3 Mar 2017 4:00

Bricago wrote:I came across this passage from the Time Life book, Home Security, published in 1979: "A five-pin lock is difficult to pick, but lockmakers have devised even more intricate puzzles to stump the expert criminal. One manufacturer bevels the pins and the key notches so that the key not only raises the pins, but rotates them; unless each pin is oriented correctly, the plug cannot move. Another [manufacturer] puts three rows of pins in each cylinder and three rows of notches on the key."

I'm curious about which two manufacturers this refers to. It's hard to visualize what they're describing. If anyone has any links to this forum or elsewhere that illustrates these features, I'd appreciate the help.

Thank you.

There was a Popular Mechanics article in the early 1980's about high security cylinders. Emhart with angled cuts was featured but not Medeco (from memory). One cylinder had three rows of pin, one conventional row and two other radial rows offset 45 degrees or so from the main row. These rows engaged in milled cuts on the sides of the key. This compared with two rows of pins in Adam detention cylinders with an auxiliary row parallel to the main row with some means to prevent the auxiliary pins from rotating. Another type was 'huck pin' which had highly serrated and spooled upper and lower pins. The three types mentioned in the article all seem defunct. Interesting that Abloy, Medeco and BiLock have survived as high security mechanisms rather than the ones in that article.
peterwn
 
Posts: 161
Joined: 22 Aug 2010 23:31

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby GWiens2001 » 3 Mar 2017 6:48

peterwn wrote:
Bricago wrote:I came across this passage from the Time Life book, Home Security, published in 1979: "A five-pin lock is difficult to pick, but lockmakers have devised even more intricate puzzles to stump the expert criminal. One manufacturer bevels the pins and the key notches so that the key not only raises the pins, but rotates them; unless each pin is oriented correctly, the plug cannot move. Another [manufacturer] puts three rows of pins in each cylinder and three rows of notches on the key."

I'm curious about which two manufacturers this refers to. It's hard to visualize what they're describing. If anyone has any links to this forum or elsewhere that illustrates these features, I'd appreciate the help.

Thank you.

There was a Popular Mechanics article in the early 1980's about high security cylinders. Emhart with angled cuts was featured but not Medeco (from memory). One cylinder had three rows of pin, one conventional row and two other radial rows offset 45 degrees or so from the main row. These rows engaged in milled cuts on the sides of the key. This compared with two rows of pins in Adam detention cylinders with an auxiliary row parallel to the main row with some means to prevent the auxiliary pins from rotating. Another type was 'huck pin' which had highly serrated and spooled upper and lower pins. The three types mentioned in the article all seem defunct. Interesting that Abloy, Medeco and BiLock have survived as high security mechanisms rather than the ones in that article.


Have a copy of that Popular Mechanics! It was a gift from Raimundo. :D

There was a Locksmith Ledger issue on high security locks that was given to me by a friend who is a locksmith. I found it funny that of all the high security locks listed, I had all of them in my collection. Guess that means I am kinda stuck on this hobby. :lol:

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Bricago » 3 Mar 2017 9:41

Thank you for the excellent replies. I'll look up the brands mentioned in this thread. This business of pins rotating while being raised is interesting, but hard to visualize. Anyone have any resources that illustrate this movement?
Bricago
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2017 10:22

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Bricago » 3 Mar 2017 10:14

GWeins2001, do you happen to know the date of that Pop Mech issue? I'd love to find that article.

Thank you.
Bricago
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2017 10:22

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby GWiens2001 » 3 Mar 2017 14:19

Bricago wrote:GWeins2001, do you happen to know the date of that Pop Mech issue? I'd love to find that article.

Thank you.


When I get home, I'll grab it and let you know.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Bricago » 3 Mar 2017 21:58

Jacob Morgan wrote: Not sure what to think about the chapter on how to rent gas bottles so as to weld together bars for one's windows.


Yes! That chapter is for the extremely ambitious DIY'er. It includes instructions for bending, welding, and connecting iron to create custom shapes for your window grills. It's no wonder they omitted that chapter from the 1996 updated edition. :)
Bricago
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2017 10:22

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby GWiens2001 » 3 Mar 2017 22:13

The issue is from September 1969.

Image

And mystery solved - the three rows of three pins is on page 135 - Sargent Keso!

Image

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
User avatar
GWiens2001
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7550
Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
Location: Arizona, United States

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Bricago » 4 Mar 2017 0:00

Thank you, Gordon. That Sargent Keso definitely fits the description of the lock and key with three rows of pins and notches. Looks like that entire issue of PM can be viewed on Google Books. The ads alone are worth checking out. I will update this thread if I can get a firm ID on the lock with the rotating pins.

Jacob Morgan, it looks like the first edition of The Complete Book of Locks and Locksmithing was published in 1976, so that fits perfectly with your theory that the Time Life authors used it as a resource. I'll try to locate a copy and see if it's in there.

Thank you for the help.
Bricago
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2017 10:22

Re: Five-Pin "advances" circa 1979

Postby Squelchtone » 4 Mar 2017 11:39

This video and the photo below it should give you a better understanding by what is meant about the pins moving up and down and rotating. Imagine if the key pin of the Medeco lock was a Coke can sitting on the table in front of you and you wanted to see the other side of the can but didnt want to pick it up, you would just rotate the can left or right until you saw the logo or ingredients printed on the other side. This is the kind of rotation each key pin in a Medeco lock does and the motion occurs because the key underneath the pin has a certain topography and the pin is pressing against that key due to the spring up above the pin, so the pin goes up and down and rotates left and right like a Jeep's suspension and wheels following the contours of ruts in an off road trail. There are limit stops built into each pin so they dont just free spin 360 degrees. They may only rotate -20 to +20 degrees.



Image
The grooves in each pin have been colorized *in this cutaway demonstration lock* to show they are all rotated so their grooves all point right and the fingers of the sidebar have somewhere to fall into, thus allowing the plug to rotate freely when the key pins are also lifted so a shear line is created between the key and driver pins above them.

Squelchtone
Image
User avatar
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11307
Joined: 11 May 2006 0:41
Location: right behind you.

Next

Return to Locks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests