Picking locks upside down.

[demux]

I think up side down being a subjective term is only true in America.

Euro cylinders and rim cylinders can only be installed in the orientation they were designed for. Obviously a euro cylinder can't be installed upside down. It won't go in the profile in the door/locking mechanism. A rim cylinder can't be installed upside down because the core is at the bottom. The tail piece won't engage with the latch if someone tryed to install it upside down. Similar to the euro, it won't go in the door.

Yes, but that's the point I was making. In both those examples, the orientation of the cylinder is driven by the locking mechanism it's being installed into. If one were so inclined, one could make a door locking mechanism that accepts a profile cylinder installed with the pins up, or a rim cylinder with the pins down. The cylinder would still operate. There's nothing inherent in the cylinder design that dictates which way it must be installed.

[pipboujalay]

Exactly how is that revelant?

My TV works when it's upside down, a safe works if it's upside down, a guitar works if it's upside down. I could go on and on.

All locks work regardless of weather upside down, back to front, or on the moon.

Your point is completely irrelevant!

I could install the whole door upside down. It work still work. That doesn't change the fact it is upside down. The branding(If it has any on it) on the lock only reads correct if it's installed pins down.

100% of euro cylinders are installed with the pins at the bottom.

Some euro cylinders have exterior marked on one end. Because they need to be installed correctly. It can have a big impact on the level of security it offers.

People pick euro cylinders upside down because it's easier to open. I think it's better to bring your picking skills up to the standard of the lock. Rather than bring the standard of the lock down to your level.

I say again. Opening a lock upside down is not a legitimate open!

Raise the standard of locksports!

[GWiens2001]

Easy, guy.

It is not really all that important. All ideas have validity, and we are here as friends and fellow lock enthusiasts.

Please refrain from telling others that their ideas are invalid. Profile locks are one of the few locks that are rarely installed upside down... in doors.

But profile locks, or more specifically half profile locks - which have the same overall profile shape and size, are also fitted into some padlocks. And even you must admit that padlocks can be mounted right side up, upside down, sideways, keyway facing the sky or keyway facing the ground. Sometimes the padlock may even be on a hasp on the other side of a gate, necessitating reaching through or over the gate and opening with the keyway facing away from the person.

Therefore there is no such thing as a picking orientation that is invalid, is there? Those are all legitimate mountings found in the real world, or as we say here, in the wild. A working locksmith and a locksport competitor both have the same goal... saying “Open!”

Gordon

[pipboujalay]

I covered this point this in my first message. Not including padlocks in the conversation because they have many diffrent designs. When they are in use they be in any orintation. They can be picked anyway way you want to.

I want to keep it specific to the euro cylinder.

(Haven't figured out how to do the quote thing yet, would use it here if I had)
Please refrain from telling others that their ideas are invalid. 

A few messages you said. "I think most people here would agree open is open"

That is you telling me my ideas/opion is invalid. I feel.

Part of this is about wanting to keep locksports standards high. We need to raise our standard to the lock. Not reduce the lock to a lower skill level so an open can be claimed. I feel locksports standards are dropping. Picking locks in both orientations is two diffrent skill sets. Most people only pick in one orientation.

Part of it is respect for the fact diffrent country's use diffrent styles of lock. I know many people agree with me on this. They are just not as vocal as me. I believe if I had a you tube channel, and picked American brand locks " upside down" I would get multiple comment saying " you picked it upside down. It's not valid" but we will never know for sure.

I ask you to give it a go. I'm sure you own a euro cylinder or two. Try picking it in its correct orientation. You will see it's very diffrent. (Pin tumbler that is. Doesn't make much diffrece with dimple locks)
If even 10% of euro cylinders were installed "pins up" I would not have started this. 100% of euro cylinders are installed pins down.

The euro cylinder should be given the respect it deserves!

[femurat]

How about the direction? If you want the real deal, even the direction you pick is important, and it depends on the hand the door is mounted.

Why change the rules of the game? I pick locks the way I want, and am happy this way.

You're overthinking the problem, in my humble opinion.

[GWiens2001]

I do have profile cylinders. And guess which way I usually pick them? With the pins at the bottom of the keyway. I also pick them the other way. Same with most of my locks, no matter what the type.

I also said that most people here feel that open is open. I didn’t say that all people feel that way. Nor did I say that all people should feel that way.

Let’s just let this settle down a bit.

Gordon

[pipboujalay]

Hi guys.

You're overthinking the problem, in my humble opinion.

Yeah, mabey your right.

So where I'm at is I feel like I have achieved what I set out to do. Which was, start a conversation.

I always knew I would be going against the popular view and making waves. I did set out to chuck a rock in the pond, and create some thought with the points I've made. Mabey encrouge a few people to flip their euro cylinder over.

Im sure there are plenty of people thinking ' ugh, whats this all about" but that thats fine. Ive always been the type to hold a slightly diffrent option from the crowd, and stick up for it. You may have noticed. But was good to get other people's take. That was also an aim. I like locksports and want to defend it.

I guess people can continue the conversation for themselves now. I have made enough noise.

Thank you all for chipping in! Much appreciated.
I'm sure I will surface somewhere in a thread in the future.

[pipboujalay]

I figured out how to do the quote thing. Yeah.

[GWiens2001]

I figured out how to do the quote thing. Yeah.

So we all learn.

Gordon

[bjornnrojb]

Profile cylinders can be installed right side up or upside down. I do a fair amount of work on some very expensive yachts here in Seattle and for whatever reason the lock cylinders are frequently oriented with the bible on top or normal as we would say in North America. On the other hand I frequently encounter locks that are installed upside down in the field. I usually offer to flip them right side up if I'm rekeying them. Sometimes you even see mortise locks installed upside down necessitating the mortise cylinder to also be installed upside down.
I have no axe to grind in the game of locksport but to me there should be a definite disconnect between locksport and real world lockpicking. For the sport to be respected I don't want people to see it as training to unlock actual doors. Allowing people to unlock the lock cylinder in whatever position they like is to me another bit of evidence that it isn't just a criminal training ground which is exactly what people are complaining about in this sport.
Now if you want my opinion on real world emulation, a bunch of graphite and corn syrup should be put in the lock to emulate years of corrosion and gunk; you should install locks at 36" so people have to either get on their knees or bend over. There should be a wet door mat there. There should be a screen door whose hinges are on the same side as the locks you're trying to unlock. The screen door will interfere with tensioning. There should be a barking dog behind the door. Maybe somebody should be sprinkling water on you from a watering can while you work. Perhaps somebody could periodically say from behind you, "Can you wait for ten minutes, my landlord says he's on his way with the key!" I'm sure I can think of some more hurdles if given time.

[GWiens2001]

Profile cylinders can be installed right side up or upside down. I do a fair amount of work on some very expensive yachts here in Seattle and for whatever reason the lock cylinders are frequently oriented with the bible on top or normal as we would say in North America. On the other hand I frequently encounter locks that are installed upside down in the field. I usually offer to flip them right side up if I'm rekeying them. Sometimes you even see mortise locks installed upside down necessitating the mortise cylinder to also be installed upside down.
I have no axe to grind in the game of locksport but to me there should be a definite disconnect between locksport and real world lockpicking. For the sport to be respected I don't want people to see it as training to unlock actual doors. Allowing people to unlock the lock cylinder in whatever position they like is to me another bit of evidence that it isn't just a criminal training ground which is exactly what people are complaining about in this sport.
Now if you want my opinion on real world emulation, a bunch of graphite and corn syrup should be put in the lock to emulate years of corrosion and gunk; you should install locks at 36" so people have to either get on their knees or bend over. There should be a wet door mat there. There should be a screen door whose hinges are on the same side as the locks you're trying to unlock. The screen door will interfere with tensioning. There should be a barking dog behind the door. Maybe somebody should be sprinkling water on you from a watering can while you work. Perhaps somebody could periodically say from behind you, "Can you wait for ten minutes, my landlord says he's on his way with the key!" I'm sure I can think of some more hurdles if given time.

I like the way you think! Keep it fun and interesting. I live in the desert. So let's have the locks mounted on a black door with a fire on the other side of it to keep it appropriately warm and add an open hot oven behind you.

Gordon

[pemlock]

I like the way you think! Keep it fun and interesting. I live in the desert. So let's have the locks mounted on a black door with a fire on the other side of it to keep it appropriately warm and add an open hot oven behind you.

Gordon

Or the "Nordic" variant: Lock frozen, -20C when you're picking... you can choose between picking it with fingers frozen numb, or with thick gloves.

[stratmando]

I see many what I call upside down, (Pins on the Bottom), and feel if you have weak or Broken spring, you may not be able to open, with a Key or Pick.
For Locksport, you may want to Picks with You upside down, and underwater, with one Breath, you may have to Start with Dive Tanks, and progress to No Tanks.

[GWiens2001]

There are a couple of locks that you can not open with the key if the lock is mounted "upside down". The MOW padlock (Ministry of Works) is one that comes to mind.

Gordon

[[serious]]

There's not a real limit here. Why do we pick locks in good shape? Why do we sometimes blast them with wd40 sometimes? Vice vs hand? In good lighting? At a non weird angle? Pick locks as they are presented. Just like a padlock can be turned to a more comfortable angle, an unmounted lock can be as well. If the challenge was to pick it upsidedown, backwards, underwater, in the dark, thats how they'd mount it. Anything you CAN do is fair game.